US Mid-Am Wilminton CC

[Jason Mandel]

I just spent part of the past two days at Wilmington CC, site of the US Mid-Am.

Yesterday, I caught the back nine of George Zahringer's match vs. Duke Delcher.  Zahringer won the match 2 &1 and really looked strong.

Today I went back and watched the semi-final match of Zahringer vs.  Jeff Norton.  Zahringer didn't seem to really have it today, but the "old" man hung in there tough, partially thanks to the poorputting of Norton, who was striking the ball solid all day.  

George was down 3 on both the front and the back and got it back to down 1 once and then to down 2, until he everntually lost on 17, 2 &1.  

Having never seen George Zahringer play before and now watching him the past two days I was really impressed by his play.  Not only by how far he still hits his drives when he hits it solid, but his short game, and especially his putting were unbelievable.  

As for the course I had mixed feelings.  I though there were some holes that were really goood.  The greens though for RTJ were really good I thought.  Every green really made the golfer think, and I think part of the reason Zahringer putted so well was that Chris Anderson, a lifelong member and one-time assistant pro at Wilmington was on his bag.  

There is such a big need for tree removal at that place though it is unbeliebable.  Clear out about 500 trees minumum and there course get soooo much better.

On another note, as I came into the club house this afternoon, who was sitting there having a drink but Tom Fazio.  One could only wonder his reason for being at the course, although I do believe he was meeting with Davis Sezna, who owns Hartfield Nat. which Fazio designed.

Jason Mandel

[JohnV]

Zahringer is now gone.  As I mentioned a few months ago, Nathan Smith is turning into a great player.  I refereed his morning match and was observer for the afternoon match.  He is in the finals tomorrow after eliminating Jerry Courville (3&2) in the morning and Alan Hill (5&4) in the afternoon.  In the afternoon he was actually dormie 7 before 3 putting from 20 feet when 2 would have won and almost shanking a tee shot on a par 3, probably lost a little focus.  In total he hit 20 of 24 fairways in 30 MPH winds.  Impressive ball striking and putting for most of the rounds.

The greens at Wilmington are awesome.  If your opponent gets in trouble there is no green there where you can just bump it up there safely and two putt for the win.  You have to get it in the right area or 3 putts is always a possibility.  They remind me of Augusta's greens in that regard.  The holes in general are very good, but tree removal would help a lot.  Also some routing issues lead to a few long walks that seem kind of weird.

I'm observer in the finals tomorrow and can't wait to see the match.

[CHrisB]

JohnV,
It was nice to meet you and John Morrissett this week.

I was extremely impressed with the greens on both courses, but especially the South. I don't think I've played a set of greens where the most severe contours are essentially right in the middle of the greens. You could put the pins in the middle of every green, away from all the surrounding bunkers/hazards/rough, and still have an amazingly difficult setup. The 9th green is a good example: take a large green, tilt it from 11 o'clock to 5 o'clock, and make a giant "bubble" in the middle of the green, and you come up with all sorts of interesting hole locations and approach shot options.

It must be fun to set the pins there for a tournament round.

[Greg Stebbins]

The large "bubble" in the middle of the greens on the south course made for some interesting greens, but it seemed like every green had essentially the same feature.

Since every green's highest point was essentially in the center of the green, the contours sloped toward the edges.  This makes it better to miss the green on the short side where you would have an uphill chip rather than missing on the "fat" side of the green wher you would be putting over a giant mound.  Playing to the short side of most greens was definately an adjustment from usual golf course management strategy.  

Are there any other good examples of courses where it is generally advantageous to miss on the short side of the greens?  

I must also add that the course was in tremendous condition, especially considering the heavy rain felt most of the year, plus hurricane Isabel.  The course was plenty firm and the greens were so fast that the USGA slowed them down after the first practice round.

[Jason Mandel]

JohnV,
I agree with your comment regarding routing issues. Some of the walks did seem a bit odd, especially the walk from 6 to 7, which just didnt seem to make sense.  

The greens were lightning, and it looked like norton was putting so defensively and couldn't read the greens well at all, so it is tribute to him that he stuck in there and won the match.

 The wind today was really a factor, i credit the players for being able to cope with this and judging yardages correctly for the most part.

As for Nathan Smith, i agree he is turning into a real good player. I have noticed him over the past few PA Am's and Pa Open's.  

Tommorows match should be great, Norton is a real fighter, he hangs in there even when he is fighting parts of his game.  

Let's not forget that tommorow they are not only playing for the Mid-Am Championship, but also a "probably" trip to the Masters.

[mike_malone]

 Jason
   As someone who grew up there i enjoyed your spelling in the title.That's how delawareans pronounce it---willminton

[TEPaul]

redanman:

Regarding your post #5 and what you said about Brian Norton, I'd have to say your negativity, bitching and moaning never ceases to amaze me---it really doesn't.

First of all you sort of have your facts muddled. The US Mid-Amateur championship was created to exclude those young men who are clearly intending to turn pro! That's why the tournament has a 25 year old age limit on it. It's been that way ever since the tournament was initiated twenty some years ago.

But now you complain that Brian Norton playing in the US Mid-Am is 'another blackeye for the USGA'! What the hell is that supposed to mean? Are you now suggesting that the entire concept of amateur status reinstatement should be scrapped?

The fact and concept of amateur status reinstatement has been around and part of the USGA since its inception well over a hundred years ago. The rules of amateur status are fairly well known and haven't changed much over that time. It's always been a rule of amateur status that a professional (touring pro or otherwise) with a recognizable name due to professional golf and a lucrative professional career could never have his amateur status reinstated. That would likely take out such as a Charles Howell despite how young he is. A gofler such as Brandell Chamblee, I admit, may have been on the all-time borderline of a pro with a relatively long and successful career managing to get his amateur status back--but Brian Norton?

Have you ever heard of him as a pro? I haven't. Do you have any idea what his professional career was about? Before you consider him a 'black eye' to the USGA or the US Mid-Am championship' perhaps you should find out first.

The way you act about amateur status reinstatement it appears you'd be content to see anyone who ever turned pro be relagated to some wasteland of competitive nonactivity somewhere between the professional and amateur ranks for the rest of their lives.

That suggetion and prospect is patent bullshit, in my opinion, and thankfully it always has been in the opinion of the USGA too!

[TEPaul]

Despite the fact that Brian Norton is a reinstated amateur, who I've never heard of as a pro or an amateur, my hopes in the finals are on Nathan Smith because he's from Pennsylvania and I saw the young man play some really excellent golf in a relatively tough set-up while officiating the Pennsylvania Amateur championship for three days at Oakmont last year. If I'm not mistaken I think he won at Oakmont around par over 54 holes, perhaps 1-2 under--and that was some real nice playing over that track. Nathan Smith is an excellent course manager and an unusually calm competitor!

[ChipOat]

Tom Paul:

It does seem that the USGA is interested in giving former amateurs a new lease on life.  The Brandell Chamblee situation might prompt the USGA to be somewhat more specific about their criteria for reinstatement.

Although I don't know for sure, it would appear that redanman is uncomfortable with the concept of amateur reinstatement.

Or perhaps he is only comfortable when it is for former club pro's who never played credible competitive golf for a full-time living or only did so for 1-2 years.

Or perhaps he is only comfortable when it is for former club pro's who have demonstrated that they weren't really very good players all along.

Or perhaps he just doesn't believe that reinstated amateurs should ever be allowed to enter the Mid-Am.  Or at least not for "X" number of years.

While it isn't really a golf architecture topic, it is golf-related so a short interchange on this DG probably isn't inappropriate.

BTW, as to the original topic of this thread, the NORTH COURSE at Wilmington CC has always impressed me a lot.  While not quite up there with Baltusrol Upper or WF East, the 36 holes at Wilmington are mighty impressive, IMO.

[JSlonis]

Chipoat,

Brandell Chamblee?  Do you mean Dillard Pruitt?

I played with Bryan Norton in the Sat/Sun qualifying rounds.  Apparently he spent about 4 years playing on the European Tour and had a short stint on the PGA tour with minimal success.  

It helped me in qualifying by playing with him and watching him manage his game and the golf course.  I could tell that he knew how to get around a course and score well.  He is a very solid ball striker and a helluva nice guy.

I just saw on the USGA website that he had to concede the finals after nine holes due to an injury.  No word yet on what happened.  That's too bad...I was heading to Wilmington this afternoon to watch the last 18 holes.

[TEPaul]

"Although I don't know for sure, it would appear that redanman is uncomfortable with the concept of amateur reinstatement."

Chip:

No kidding! It certainly appears that way to me too.

I completely agree that Brandel Chamblee was over the line for ever being considered for reinstatement of his amateur status. I'm quite certain the USGA may have become aware of that following the reaction of his reinstatement and perhaps that will influence their decisions in the future on reinstatement applications of others basically fitting Chamblee's professional profile. I can tell you if I sat on the USGA amateur status committee I doubt I would've voted for Chamblee's reinstatement.

But redanman didn't make his statement about Chamblee being a USGA 'blackeye', he made it about some guy named Bryan Norton who happens to be playing in the US Mid-Am's finals.

Again, the rules on Amateur status reinstatement are fairly well known and defined (they are written in the manual) at least they are to those applying and administering that process.

I know this because for a number of years I ran the committee at GAP that starts that administrative process. Over my tenure probably 150 amateur status reinstatement applications were processed and sent along to the USGA for a decision as to waiting period or even the issuance of amateur reinstatement.

This process always starts at the local and regional level in an association such as the Golf Association of Philadelphia. Every applicant for reinstatement must completely fill out a long and detailed form involving amateur status rules and how and why and when he violated those rules by professionalism as well as some supporting documents of sponsors and such for his reinstatement. It's carefully reviewed and voted on by our committee and then voted on by the entire board of GAP and then passed along to the USGA if we approve it at the local level.

I never had anyone such as Brandel Chamblee and it's very rare that an amateur status reinstatement application would be turned down at the regional level (that almost always falls to the USGA) but it has happened at the regional level. One time a former pro who had been reinstated as an amateur tried to play in a local US Open qualifier and since his handicap was too high he turned pro again, entered the qualifier, shot a million and promptly filed his amateur reinistatement application again. At that point we informed him; "Sorry Pal, your application stops here, we're not going to even think about processing it and sending it on to the USGA."

But the way redanman seems to view amateur status reinstatement which has been part of the USGA since the beginning there should be thousands upon thousands of golfers out there who were once a professional, perhaps for only a month, who must repent for their professionalism by being forced into some middle ground wasteland between amateurism and professionalism and barred from ever competing in golf again.

In case redanman failed to understand it, which is entirely possible, there only is amateurism and professionalism in this country and probably the world. There is no middle ground or Purgatory in golf where those lost souls of former professionals should reside for the remainder of their days that I know of. But perhaps redanman thinks one should be created!

I disagree.

[TEPaul]

I'm sorry, I did say Brandel Chamblee when it certainly was Dillard Pruitt and his borderline reinstatement I was thinking of. I assume Brandel Chamblee remains a professional golfer. Sorry Brandel!

[TEPaul]

So Nathan Smith wins the US Mid-Am on a default? Wow, is that unprecedented?? Did anyone see that holier than God purist amateur status advocate redanman anywhere in the vicinity of Wilmington Del. in the last 24 to 36 hours? If he came anywhere near Bryan Norton I have a couple of very good criminal lawyers out of Wilmington I could recommend to poor Bryan Norton!  

[Mark Studer]

Tom- we saw Nathan Smith finish the last 9 holes of the PA state amateur together last year, winning at  Oakmont....no rulings(thankfully), but some good golf. He has really improved his game the last 2 years....he has been getting lessons from Don Sargent here in Pittsburgh.(Don teaches 6 players that made it to the us am at Oakmont)Nathan missed the playoff for match play at this year's usam in august by 1 stroke  He is the 6th west penn golfer to make it to the USGA Mid-am quarterfinals. Congratulations Nate!-Mark

[Mark Studer]

Maybe John V can fill us in as to what happened  as far as the injuy concession of this match.....winner to play in the 2004 Masters..calling John.

[TEPaul]

Mark;

Yes indeed we were together when Nathan was putting the finishing touches on his Pa Amateur Championship victory at Oakmont. Perhaps you may even remember he passed by us a few times this year in the Pa Amateur at Scranton too but we were so involved in analyzing the architecture there we may not have actually noticed him!  

I surely hope this national victory does not make Nathan entertain any ideas of turning pro, though, because if redanman has anything to say about that then that will be the last round of amateur golf Nathan will ever play in his life!!  

PS;

There was a group that ran into a real problem on #16 at Scranton, I think just shortly after you left. They apparently had a very hard time determining if the portion of the ditch two balls were in should be considered a french drain from which relief may have been considered. They were loudly and wildly hailing me to come and help them but I yelled over to them from behind #17 green;

"You guys just figure it out for yourselves because I need to analyze the architecture of this kick-up on the back of this 17th green for at least ten more minutes and then I'll be over there to help you--but if it's taken you that long to figure it out for yourselves I'm gonna hit all of you with a 6-7 slow play ruling!"

This is my new officiating modus operandi known as "player self-reliance"! What do you think?  

[TEPaul]

Mark:

Can you imagine Pat Mucci trying to officiate a state amateur and such? If a group had a problem and Pat arrived on the scene the entire group would have to answer 101 questions first and even if they did Pat still would probably refuse to give them a straight answer or ruling!    

[TEPaul]

Mark:

Can you imagine if a group had a problem at a State Amateur or such and redanman was officiating and came upon the scene? It's almost too horrible to think about! But it would be likely that at least one, perhaps two or all of them might be in danger of losing their amateur status for some bizarre reason!  

[JSlonis]

Fresh off the USGA Mid Am website...

Apparently Bryan Norton popped his calf muscle in his left leg while hitting a nine iron off a steep bank next to a bunker.  

This was the first match that has ever ended due to an injury concession.  It is a shame that his run had to end this way, he deserved to go down swinging.(No pun intended)  

Tom,

It is interesting that your posts have topped the scale at a whopping 8000!  No need to keep counting...looks like you'll be capped for perpetuity.

[George Pazin]

Congratulations on making the match play, Jamie. When you say it helped you playing with Bryan, do you mean in a general controlled game sense, or did you pick up anything specific? I recall Tom Paul telling me 2 years ago that you were one of the most astute game managers around, so you saying you were helped by him is really saying something.

[TEPaul]

GeorgeP:

I agree that it is impressive that Jamie Slonis feels he learned something from Bryan Norton in the way of management or whatever because Jamie is a fine course manager and control player except when he's not!

Jamie:

I didn't even notice I'd cracked 8,000. How embarrassing. Perhaps I should just delete a random 2 or 3 thousand thousand and get down near Pat's total so he can at least see my tail lights as I leave him in the dust again!  

PS:

If Ran doesn't make me a "God" again when I hit 10,000 I'm gonna officially cut his handicap in half and put a lifelong curse on his golf game!

[ACR]

I have been a member at Wilmington for about 10 years and I have always enjoyed both courses.  I think the North is very underrated and the scoring in the medal play last weekend showed that it can play very tough, even at 6500 yards.  As for the South, I agree that it could use some tree removal in places, but I also think that some of the claustrophobic spots are important to the play of the holes.  Notably, the 2nd shots on #3 and #16 can make the holes.  On most par 5s, the layup shot is sort of meaningless, other than maybe wanting to favor one side of the fairway.  On 3 and 16, however, it is down right terrifying.  They both are long enough to require a long iron or wood for the layup, but both get so tight at the landing area that is easy to put yourself in jail.  The trees require a good, accurate shot in those spots and I think it makes the holes more interesting.  The same argument could me made for the tee shot on #11, although here I think the trees are a little too overwhelming.  On the rest of the course, I do not find the trees to be much of a factor, so I am not sure how much removal is really necessary.

Unfortunately for Wilmington, the length of today's players has made a lot of the fairway bunkering obsolete.  As with a lot of RTJ courses, the primary hazard off of most tees is a bunker (or pair of bunkers) pinching the fairway at about 260.  These days, many of those hazards are out of play for long hitters.  The longer hitters that I have played with knock it right over the fairway bunkers on 1, 2, 5, 8, 12, 14, 15 and 18 (although 18 is a little tougher).  Unfortunately, they all still come into play just fine for me.

[THuckaby2]

I didn't even notice I'd cracked 8,000. How embarrassing. Perhaps I should just delete a random 2 or 3 thousand thousand and get down near Pat's total so he can at least see my tail lights as I leave him in the dust again!  

You'll notice someone else on your tail, in fact in 2nd place.  Just you wait until we get our new home computer, also, and I start checking this out at home - my marriage may crumble, but GOD-hood shall be MINE!

 

TH

[TEPaul]

Listen Huckster, you sniffling little whippersnapper, don't you even be thinking about any kind of Godhood in remotely the same heaven as me.

Furthermore, maybe you don't realize it but you'll be in the doghouse anyway for at least six months for even implying that NGLA may not be totally strategic!  

[THuckaby2]

TEP:

Ahhhh, ok, so you don't relish the challenge.  Feeling a little threatened, are you?  I'm chipping away... got the deficit under 3000 finally...  

As for NGLA, it certainly wasn't I who ever implied it presents anything but the absolute epitome of strategic choices for the astute golfer.  But you know what, I sure could be wrong in my assessments of the place, which were universally positive.  I think I need to play it about 35 more times to really make sure.  

TH