Open Shinny "brings back features that might have been lost in the modern game"

[Edward Glidewell]

Which course that hosts the US Open on a regular or semi-regular basis (e.g. Oakmont, Pebble, Pinehurst, Bethpage(?), etc) is typically altered the least as part of the preparation for hosting? And how likely is it that the "average guy" ever plays that course? When we talk about the "average guy" in a conversation like this, do we mean the average guy with access to Shinnecock, Merion and Oakmont?


Personally, I agree with the view that today's top players are in no way shape or form related to the average guy. They should play a different course.

I don't think Pinehurst was significantly altered for the 2014 US Open, although I could be wrong.

[MClutterbuck]

I'm sure that nobody wants to be the first to give up a 62, especially in a US Open.

If US Track and Field didn't want high jumpers to clear 7' they would have put in sand take off pits. The best golfers in the world should be shooting scores that the average golfer could not comprehend ever shooting.

If the same guys hadn´t agreed to the changes in the javelin, then spectators would get killed in stadiums or new javelin stadiums would have to get built...

[MClutterbuck]

another gem
Poa, rye and bent rough you "can't hardly get a club through"
and they cite bermuda (in the summer no less) as a grass that works better (presumably at getting a club through)


you really can't make this stuff up

To be fair, the bermuda part says it is easier when rough and fairway are the same grass...

The rough and the fairway ARE (or WERE) the same grass...until they brought in the fescue.
My quibble is I've NEVER EVER heard anone say rye/poa/bent roughs were tough to get a club through compared to bermuda.

When did the fescue get introduced at Shinnecock? It is such a integral part of the course that I cant even imagine in without it.


Why would they have not done fescues up to the US Open rough lines at the same time?

[Peter Flory]

Didn’t the Open get there first last year? Brandon Grace shot 62.

You're right.  I guess it didn't make much of an impression on me. 

[Dan Herrmann]

It's so very sad.   To see a national treasure like Shinny be altered in such a malicious way is akin to going to the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa with a magic-marker mustache.

[BHoover]

It's so very sad.   To see a national treasure like Shinny be altered in such a malicious way is akin to going to the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa with a magic-marker mustache.

I’d say that’s a bit of an overstatement.

[Terry Lavin]

It's so very sad.   To see a national treasure like Shinny be altered in such a malicious way is akin to going to the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa with a magic-marker mustache.

I’d say that’s a bit of an overstatement.

I'll concur in this judgment.  To me, the most telling example is Merion, where the USGA came in and tortured the original design in order to defend par for the US Open.  Not unsurprisingly, the members were just fine with these machinations, because it kept them in the company of the great sites to have hosted the championship through the years.  I played with a prominent member who said that there are hardly any dissenting voices on this subject.  I'm guessing the same is true at Shinnecock.  The only part of this issue that irks me is that Mike Davis was on television during the Merion Open, extolling the virtues of the original architectural design of Merion, while completely ignoring that he was messing with the architect's brilliant design with the various tweaks.


At the end of the day, the US Open isn't about coddling the architectural purists, it's about hosting a championship that everybody wants to win and most clubs would dearly love to host.

[Ken Moum]

FWIW, I was just reading the Ray Floyd in Golf Digest (?), and he's taking credit for instigating the change.


He's a member and said that after seeing it was so wide, he told the USGA it was going to ruin the Open.\


K

[jeffwarne]

FWIW, I was just reading the Ray Floyd in Golf Digest (?), and he's taking credit for instigating the change.


He's a member and said that after seeing it was so wide, he told the USGA it was going to ruin the Open.\


K

No doubt an architectural genius.
I wouldn't credit/blame Floyd-the USGA proves yearly they don't need help to ruin an Open

[George Pazin]

Guy noted that the USGA had consistently gotten it wrong multiple times in the past 5-6 years-plus the last Shinny debacle.

More evidence of how different my tastes are. I thought the Shinny Open was the most compelling event of the last 20 years. There were a few - and I underscore, A FEW - times the set up MAY have been over the top. But watching Phil and Retief at their relative peaks battling it out, trying to figure out how to put together a score while others failed - well, to me, that's golf at its best.


I didn't see Carnoustie 99, I didn't see tricked up anything, I didn't see excessive watered rough, I didn't see omnipresent water like Sawgrass (which turns every mishit into a TWO shot penalty, minimum, not one). I saw two guys at their best, putting together a compelling story. I only wish Tiger had been similarly at his peak and in the mix, I think it would have been even more interesting.


But hey, those 7 irons that Micheel and Chad Campbell fired into the 18th at Oak Hill sure were puuuuuuuuuuuurdy, weren't they?


I don't get people, but then again, I suppose the argument could be made that I never have and never will.


I'm still not changing the words of wisdom Pat Brockwell shared with us all those years ago.

[Carl Rogers]

the usual conundrum:....
alter course to defend par
           or
roll back equipment to eliminate the "need" to alter the course

[JESII]

Or...forget what they shoot relative to par and ask if they've hit interesting shots and did the best player win.


How would a shooting contest between Steph Curry and me end up?

[John Kavanaugh]

It's so very sad.   To see a national treasure like Shinny be altered in such a malicious way is akin to going to the Louvre to see the Mona Lisa with a magic-marker mustache.

As with most of these courses, you can't get close enough to the Mona Lisa to matter.

[Thomas Dai]

Not going to comment on set-up or green speeds etc but the US Open that Retief Goosen won at “Shinny” was one of the most memorable and enjoyable to watch on TV that I recall. Enjoyed Watchng Corey Pavin’s win there as well.
Atb

[Tim Martin]

As quick as they have gotten it “Open Ready” they can get it “Member Ready”. I for one don’t want to see the setup yield a twenty under par winner any more than Shinnecock and or the USGA wants one. If you are going to leave the sixty yard fairways then you are going to get scores lower than the marching orders. I believe the members can sleep soundly knowing that the extracted turf is safe somewhere in an undisclosed location in New Jersey. Turf “On the Lam” if you will.

[Jeff Schley]

Not going to comment on set-up or green speeds etc but the US Open that Retief Goosen won at “Shinny” was one of the most memorable and enjoyable to watch on TV that I recall. Enjoyed Watchng Corey Pavin’s win there as well.
Atb

I remember watching Goosen putting on that parking lot fast greens thinking wow, this guy is good.  Especially the baked out par 3 green they lost.

[jeffwarne]

Guy noted that the USGA had consistently gotten it wrong multiple times in the past 5-6 years-plus the last Shinny debacle.

More evidence of how different my tastes are. I thought the Shinny Open was the most compelling event of the last 20 years. There were a few - and I underscore, A FEW - times the set up MAY have been over the top. But watching Phil and Retief at their relative peaks battling it out, trying to figure out how to put together a score while others failed - well, to me, that's golf at its best.





I don't get people, but then again, I suppose the argument could be made that I never have and never will.


I'm still not changing the words of wisdom Pat Brockwell shared with us all those years ago.

in 2004, Shinny the LAST day was an entirely different story than the the buildup prior to the week.
A few months before the USGA grew in some really weird roughjusty off the fairways that was foreign and just weird, and they hacked back the native bluestem way back in the actual roughs.
The wind didn't blow all week and the pros were having their way. Then on Saturday night, with a wicked cold front forecast, the greens were "secretly" rolled at night.
Is that really what it takes for a compelling Open?
Maybe at Torrey Pines, but at iconic Shinnecock?


Shinny the course didn't show us anything(it didn't get the chance to)-carried away and defensive set up guys  and and a dry windy cold front gave you the compelling golf you enjoyed so much.


Shinny is a great course.
Maybe one day they will play it in the Davis US Open.

[George Pazin]

in 2004, Shinny the LAST day was an entirely different story than the the buildup prior to the week.
A few months before the USGA grew in some really weird roughjusty off the fairways that was foreign and just weird, and they hacked back the native bluestem way back in the actual roughs.
The wind didn't blow all week and the pros were having their way. Then on Saturday night, with a wicked cold front forecast, the greens were "secretly" rolled at night.
Is that really what it takes for a compelling Open?
Maybe at Torrey Pines, but at iconic Shinnecock?


Shinny the course didn't show us anything(it didn't get the chance to)-carried away and defensive set up guys  and and a dry windy cold front gave you the compelling golf you enjoyed so much.


Shinny is a great course.
Maybe one day they will play it in the Davis US Open.

Well, your recollection is different than mine. I enjoyed watching all 4 days, and aside from the perhaps valid complaints about sporadic syringing of greens (mostly the short par 3) - hey, how come I played it dry and he played it wet? - I really truly enjoyed the test. I thought it was pretty cool watching guys struggle to make a 4 on the modest 10th (the most underrated and overlooked par 4 in the world, imho), and it seemed to have as much to do with the architecture as the set up.


But I could certainly be wrong, I wasn't there, haven't ever played it. Somehow the best players that week managed to make their way around, while the others struggled and complained; I believe that's what those of us who enjoyed it remember. To me, if it's fluky, you don't get Retief and Phil, you get Shaun and Chad. As I said, the only thing missing was a Tiger in good form.


Here's hoping the course and the set up reflect Shinny's majesty this year.

[Tim Martin]

George-10 is an incredible hole for sure sandwiched between one of the great three hole stretches anywhere of 9-11.

[jeffwarne]

in 2004, Shinny the LAST day was an entirely different story than the the buildup prior to the week.
A few months before the USGA grew in some really weird roughjusty off the fairways that was foreign and just weird, and they hacked back the native bluestem way back in the actual roughs.
The wind didn't blow all week and the pros were having their way. Then on Saturday night, with a wicked cold front forecast, the greens were "secretly" rolled at night.
Is that really what it takes for a compelling Open?
Maybe at Torrey Pines, but at iconic Shinnecock?


Shinny the COURSE didn't show us anything (it didn't get the chance to)-rather, carried away and defensive set up guys  and and a dry windy cold front gave you the compelling golf you enjoyed so much.


Shinny is a great course.
Maybe one day they will play it in the Davis US Open.

Well, your recollection is different than mine. I enjoyed watching all 4 days, and aside from the perhaps valid complaints about sporadic syringing of greens (mostly the short par 3) - hey, how come I played it dry and he played it wet? - I really truly enjoyed the test. I thought it was pretty cool watching guys struggle to make a 4 on the modest 10th (the most underrated and overlooked par 4 in the world, imho), and it seemed to have as much to do with the architecture as the set up.


But I could certainly be wrong, I wasn't there, haven't ever played it. Somehow the best players that week managed to make their way around, while the others struggled and complained; I believe that's what those of us who enjoyed it remember. To me, if it's fluky, you don't get Retief and Phil, you get Shaun and Chad. As I said, the only thing missing was a Tiger in good form.


Here's hoping the course and the set up reflect Shinny's majesty this year.

I agree with all that.
Just hate the contrived nonsense.
Turn the water off and firm it up-cool.
Build all the back tees you want(if you're not going to reasonably regulate equipment)


but the rest (2004 planting and replanting rough,mowing back native bluestem,later  widening and restoring, then planting fescue sod this year)is a demonstration in unsustainability at worst-and an issue of doing too much at best.


I was there every day in 2004-I enjoyed it as well (sadly no wind Thursday-Saturday)but what I didn't enjoy on Sunday was NO ONE could hold green from fairway OR rough, so it was a lob and putting contest-very little separation between great, good and average full shots.
Of course the weather played into that, but it went over the top due to the hand of man.(and/or a preconceived winning score)
then it required the hand of man to finish some holes


US Open formula
Pick a course,
tip it out,
 firm it up,
grow some rough if need be -don't import it
and tee it up.


prep the course for a month-not for years.

It nearly always amazes me how often the USGA gets it wrong, yet nearly all courses get it right for their MG or Club Champonship every year.

[Matthew Mollica]

I for one don’t want to see the setup yield a twenty under par winner

Can you expand on why you don’t want to see such a score?




Matthew

[Tim Martin]

I for one don’t want to see the setup yield a twenty under par winner

Can you expand on why you don’t want to see such a score?




Matthew

Matt-I have always been a fan of the U.S. Open’s intention of providing the toughest test in golf and in keeping with tradition setting up the course to accomplish same. Watching the best in the world grind out a score once a year under the toughest conditions appeals to me although I get that there are plenty of people that would like to see low/lower scoring.

[Kalen Braley]

Tim,


If thats the goal, then so be it.  But I think what some of us are saying, is why butcher a track like Shinnecock to accomplish this?


Go to a track like Valhalla where you can stretch it to 7500 yards, setup uber merch tents, mow the fairways 20 yards wide, grow the rough to 6 inches, don't water the greens for a week, and voila you got your beastie track all ready to go, carnage and all.


Leave the old classics be.

[BHoover]

Tim,


If thats the goal, then so be it.  But I think what some of us are saying, is why butcher a track like Shinnecock to accomplish this?


Go to a track like Valhalla where you can stretch it to 7500 yards, setup uber merch tents, mow the fairways 20 yards wide, grow the rough to 6 inches, don't water the greens for a week, and voila you got your beastie track all ready to go, carnage and all.


Leave the old classics be.

It’s tough to take your argument seriously when you use “track” to refer to a course.

[Peter Pallotta]

A 'dialogue' with the USGA is actually two distinct 'monologues' and frames of reference:
for the USGA, "Shinnecock" refers to a 'marketable venue' at which to 'apply an ethos' in order to 'create an American championship' for the 'good of the game'.
For me, "Shinnecock" is a 'historic golf course' designed to be 'subject to the weather' that 'allows for an exciting tournament' that is 'good for fans of golf and golf course architecture alike'.
There is no commonality there whatsoever.