Zoysia greens

[A.G._Crockett]

Anybody have any experience playing on these?  A club in Georgia where I used to be a member (Crooked Creek) is under new ownership, and they are shutting down June 1 to convert to zoysia greens.  I've googled it and read what little there is to read, but I've never played a course that has this.

I'm very curious about the database of info on this, especially in light of the difficulties that courses in NC with the various bermuda hybrid greens are experiencing this spring after the extended cold in late December into the middle of January; would zoysia be more or less cold tolerant?  Do zoysia greens need to be covered like bermuda greens?  And so on... 

Some very high end courses with no real budget constraints have bermuda greens that are in real trouble; Sedgefield, Hope Valley, and Hasentree are three examples.  Others, including some on the low end of the financial spectrum, have no problems at all, almost as if every course was a micro climate.  There are a lot of VERY nervous supers right now, and a lot of supers with bent who are feeling pretty good, I think.

[Chris Cupit]

A.G.,


I am always a little hesitant to chime in on a course near me since it could be interpreted the wrong way.  But, what the heck!  I have had considerable experience with zoysia grass and even its use as a turf quality green.  About a decade ago we had bent greens and we experimented with two zoysia greens:  a chipping/practice green and a separate putting green that we used diamond zoysia on.  Each green was about 2,000 sq. ft.  At the time, we had space limitations and chose zoysia foremost for its wear tolerance.  My superintendent, Mark Hoban, and I traveled to several courses in South Carolina speaking with the few supers who were using diamond zoysia at the time as greens.


Diamond zoysia has fallen out of favor but it took off when AAC and Peachtree both used it extensively at their courses.  We used it as well on our tee boxes after our big renovation in 2006.  Anyway, diamond zoysia is not the cultivar being used at Crooked Creek, but it is an exceptionally fine bladed zoysia and what many were using on greens in Texas, and South Carolina.


First, the positives:  it is a warm season grass like Bermuda and actually greens up earlier and stays green longer than Bermuda.  It is dense and ball marking is almost non existent.  It handles shade far better than Bermuda and for those courses that can't cut enough trees or move houses to get enough sunlight, it is a great warm season grass alternative to Bermuda.


The negatives:  like Bermuda, zoysia will require Crooked Creek to use covers during the winter.  A one time expense for the covers and then an ongoing expense when you need to cover/remove in the winter.  I will say that is pretty overrated though as even this year the number of times to cover/uncover wasn't that bad.  It does mean you have to keep a decent size crew throughout the year and I know Crooked Creek has had severe financial/staffing issues.


Additionally, we found zoysia very susceptible to disease--we spent a ton of time and money fighting wilt and disease on our tees.  I am pretty sure Peachtree has moved to a different cultivar of zoysia and AAC has moved away from diamond too.  We no longer use diamond on our tees.  With that said, I understand Crooked Creek is using a new cultivar of zoysia.  That may be great but I would hate to ever be the one who is the "first in the pool" so to speak with a new cultivar.  With any grass I like having one that others in my area are using.  One thing about superintendents that I love is how cooperative and collegial they are as a group.  They genuinely help one another out and want each other to succeed.  With a common grass cultivar you can share protocols and information.  If you are the only one on the block with a unique grass, you are out there all alone--I know I wouldn't want that.


When we had our zoysia greens (2) they took a tremendous amount of work--intensive cultural practices.  We walk mowed every day even getting below .100 of an inch.  We verticut and top-dressed almost weekly during the growing season and despite this, the biggest challenge will be grain and green speed.  Zoysia is so dense, finding fine particle sand is a must and of course, it was more expensive. 


We could never achieve speed much past 10 and that is after intense effort to see how fast we could get them.  Grain was absolutely an issue and there was certainly a fast direction and slow direction that varied by more than a foot on a stimp which is a lot!  So down grain we may get 10.5 but into the grain we were lucky to get 9.5.  I will be shocked to see if they can get green speeds anywhere near where the Atlanta private club market deems acceptable.  Please know, I am NOT saying 9.5 is a bad speed and Crooked Creek has some terrific greens with nice roll in them, BUT people are hooked on "fast".  I also think in the summer when the greens are really growing, it is going to be very hard and labor intensive to get the texture, roll and speed they want.


The courses that we visited were a combination of public, resort and one private course.  Again, that was in 2008-9.  My take is that zoysia is fine for public and maybe even resort play but unless someone can crack the code and get speeds, tecture and ball roll considerably improved, I'm skeptical as to how private club golfers will receive them as a quality putting surface.


 

[Mike_Young]

A.G.,


I am always a little hesitant to chime in on a course near me since it could be interpreted the wrong way.  But, what the heck!  I have had considerable experience with zoysia grass and even its use as a turf quality green.  About a decade ago we had bent greens and we experimented with two zoysia greens:  a chipping/practice green and a separate putting green that we used diamond zoysia on.  Each green was about 2,000 sq. ft.  At the time, we had space limitations and chose zoysia foremost for its wear tolerance.  My superintendent, Mark Hoban, and I traveled to several courses in South Carolina speaking with the few supers who were using diamond zoysia at the time as greens.


Diamond zoysia has fallen out of favor but it took off when AAC and Peachtree both used it extensively at their courses.  We used it as well on our tee boxes after our big renovation in 2006.  Anyway, diamond zoysia is not the cultivar being used at Crooked Creek, but it is an exceptionally fine bladed zoysia and what many were using on greens in Texas, and South Carolina.


First, the positives:  it is a warm season grass like Bermuda and actually greens up earlier and stays green longer than Bermuda.  It is dense and ball marking is almost non existent.  It handles shade far better than Bermuda and for those courses that can't cut enough trees or move houses to get enough sunlight, it is a great warm season grass alternative to Bermuda.


The negatives:  like Bermuda, zoysia will require Crooked Creek to use covers during the winter.  A one time expense for the covers and then an ongoing expense when you need to cover/remove in the winter.  I will say that is pretty overrated though as even this year the number of times to cover/uncover wasn't that bad.  It does mean you have to keep a decent size crew throughout the year and I know Crooked Creek has had severe financial/staffing issues.


Additionally, we found zoysia very susceptible to disease--we spent a ton of time and money fighting wilt and disease on our tees.  I am pretty sure Peachtree has moved to a different cultivar of zoysia and AAC has moved away from diamond too.  We no longer use diamond on our tees.  With that said, I understand Crooked Creek is using a new cultivar of zoysia.  That may be great but I would hate to ever be the one who is the "first in the pool" so to speak with a new cultivar.  With any grass I like having one that others in my area are using.  One thing about superintendents that I love is how cooperative and collegial they are as a group.  They genuinely help one another out and want each other to succeed.  With a common grass cultivar you can share protocols and information.  If you are the only one on the block with a unique grass, you are out there all alone--I know I wouldn't want that.


When we had our zoysia greens (2) they took a tremendous amount of work--intensive cultural practices.  We walk mowed every day even getting below .100 of an inch.  We verticut and top-dressed almost weekly during the growing season and despite this, the biggest challenge will be grain and green speed.  Zoysia is so dense, finding fine particle sand is a must and of course, it was more expensive. 


We could never achieve speed much past 10 and that is after intense effort to see how fast we could get them.  Grain was absolutely an issue and there was certainly a fast direction and slow direction that varied by more than a foot on a stimp which is a lot!  So down grain we may get 10.5 but into the grain we were lucky to get 9.5.  I will be shocked to see if they can get green speeds anywhere near where the Atlanta private club market deems acceptable.  Please know, I am NOT saying 9.5 is a bad speed and Crooked Creek has some terrific greens with nice roll in them, BUT people are hooked on "fast".  I also think in the summer when the greens are really growing, it is going to be very hard and labor intensive to get the texture, roll and speed they want.


The courses that we visited were a combination of public, resort and one private course.  Again, that was in 2008-9.  My take is that zoysia is fine for public and maybe even resort play but unless someone can crack the code and get speeds, tecture and ball roll considerably improved, I'm skeptical as to how private club golfers will receive them as a quality putting surface.

CP,
I have some friends there and I hear they have a good supt but I agree with you about being the first in the pool. 

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.,


I am always a little hesitant to chime in on a course near me since it could be interpreted the wrong way.  But, what the heck!  I have had considerable experience with zoysia grass and even its use as a turf quality green.  About a decade ago we had bent greens and we experimented with two zoysia greens:  a chipping/practice green and a separate putting green that we used diamond zoysia on.  Each green was about 2,000 sq. ft.  At the time, we had space limitations and chose zoysia foremost for its wear tolerance.  My superintendent, Mark Hoban, and I traveled to several courses in South Carolina speaking with the few supers who were using diamond zoysia at the time as greens.


Diamond zoysia has fallen out of favor but it took off when AAC and Peachtree both used it extensively at their courses.  We used it as well on our tee boxes after our big renovation in 2006.  Anyway, diamond zoysia is not the cultivar being used at Crooked Creek, but it is an exceptionally fine bladed zoysia and what many were using on greens in Texas, and South Carolina.


First, the positives:  it is a warm season grass like Bermuda and actually greens up earlier and stays green longer than Bermuda.  It is dense and ball marking is almost non existent.  It handles shade far better than Bermuda and for those courses that can't cut enough trees or move houses to get enough sunlight, it is a great warm season grass alternative to Bermuda.


The negatives:  like Bermuda, zoysia will require Crooked Creek to use covers during the winter.  A one time expense for the covers and then an ongoing expense when you need to cover/remove in the winter.  I will say that is pretty overrated though as even this year the number of times to cover/uncover wasn't that bad.  It does mean you have to keep a decent size crew throughout the year and I know Crooked Creek has had severe financial/staffing issues.


Additionally, we found zoysia very susceptible to disease--we spent a ton of time and money fighting wilt and disease on our tees.  I am pretty sure Peachtree has moved to a different cultivar of zoysia and AAC has moved away from diamond too.  We no longer use diamond on our tees.  With that said, I understand Crooked Creek is using a new cultivar of zoysia.  That may be great but I would hate to ever be the one who is the "first in the pool" so to speak with a new cultivar.  With any grass I like having one that others in my area are using.  One thing about superintendents that I love is how cooperative and collegial they are as a group.  They genuinely help one another out and want each other to succeed.  With a common grass cultivar you can share protocols and information.  If you are the only one on the block with a unique grass, you are out there all alone--I know I wouldn't want that.


When we had our zoysia greens (2) they took a tremendous amount of work--intensive cultural practices.  We walk mowed every day even getting below .100 of an inch.  We verticut and top-dressed almost weekly during the growing season and despite this, the biggest challenge will be grain and green speed.  Zoysia is so dense, finding fine particle sand is a must and of course, it was more expensive. 


We could never achieve speed much past 10 and that is after intense effort to see how fast we could get them.  Grain was absolutely an issue and there was certainly a fast direction and slow direction that varied by more than a foot on a stimp which is a lot!  So down grain we may get 10.5 but into the grain we were lucky to get 9.5.  I will be shocked to see if they can get green speeds anywhere near where the Atlanta private club market deems acceptable.  Please know, I am NOT saying 9.5 is a bad speed and Crooked Creek has some terrific greens with nice roll in them, BUT people are hooked on "fast".  I also think in the summer when the greens are really growing, it is going to be very hard and labor intensive to get the texture, roll and speed they want.


The courses that we visited were a combination of public, resort and one private course.  Again, that was in 2008-9.  My take is that zoysia is fine for public and maybe even resort play but unless someone can crack the code and get speeds, tecture and ball roll considerably improved, I'm skeptical as to how private club golfers will receive them as a quality putting surface.

Chris,
Thanks so much for the thoughtful and thorough reply.  And it is exactly what I anticipated, really; I couldn't imagine a strain of zoysia that wouldn't be slow(ish) and grainy. 

It may be that at Crooked Creek, they simply can't cut the trees that would need to come down in order to put in Champion or one of the other bermuda hybrids because many of the trees are actually in people's yards rather than on the golf course itself; I'm not sure.  But a LOT of those holes are shaded from both directions, regardless of who owns the trees.

It's one thing when bent is running slowly; it's another thing entirely when a grass with serious grain to it is slow.  You're at the mercy of the grain not only on putts but on chips and pitches as well, and I can't imagine the membership being happy with the results, or new members coming in when there are other options nearby.  But time will tell, I suppose.  The finances of Crooked Creek have been screwed up since Day One anyway, and the only way it's ever going to work, IMO, is as a semi rather than fully private.

Again, thanks.

One other note: here in the Triangle, the courses with Bermuda had to cover just before Christmas, and stayed covered until the middle of January; there had never been anything like it.  Some really high end courses have a looming disaster on their hands now, waiting to see if their greens will come back when the soil temps come up, or if they are just dead.  The ACC women's tournament was to be played this weekend at Sedgefield, but had to move to Grandover instead; I played at Sedgefield last fall and the Champion greens were absolutely flawless, and their budget and staff would have to be in the top 10% of the golf world.  I had an interclub match today at Hasentree, which has G-12, and I'd estimate that half their greens are fully or partially dirt.  I could go on, but you get the idea.  Meanwhile, the bent supers are breathing easy, at least until the 4th of July when they go on suicide watch until Labor Day.

Farming is tough, right?

[Edward Glidewell]

Sedgefield has a lot of dead spots on their greens. In fact, they are shutting the course down for the whole month of May (and possibly longer) for sodding, plugging, whatever else they to do try to get the greens healthy again.

[A.G._Crockett]

Sedgefield has a lot of dead spots on their greens. In fact, they are shutting the course down for the whole month of May (and possibly longer) for sodding, plugging, whatever else they to do try to get the greens healthy again.

And here's the strange thing about what we're seeing; I played in a senior tournament today, and one of the guys in my group is a member at Raleigh CC.  Also a McConnell property, also Champion Bermuda and approx. 90 minutes away.  When I asked him how the greens at Raleigh CC were, his one word answer was "Great!"

Unprecedented cold in early January, unprecedented time with the greens covered, unprecedented outcomes.

[Kris Spence]

A.G.
RCC has bentgrass greens


I stopped by Sapona Ridge CC in Lexington NC on Sat to see how their Diamond greens came through the winter.  They were in great condition and had reasonable speed 9.5 my guess.  The ball wiggles a bit on roll but not enough to cause a miss, more noticeable when others putting.


I looked at  several (7) greens at Starmount Forest in Greensboro Friday, Champion ultradwarf was flawless so not everyone lost greens.  GCS Brent Gentle is right up there with the legendary Rod Lingle former of Memphis CC as “go to guys” for me when I have questions on UD management.  They understand how to manage summer, into fall/winter, winter protection and out of dormancy better than anyone imho.


The comment on how great they were last fall is a key to what happened on many courses.  It’s more than just low temps, fall plant prep (raising hoc) and winter hydration are critical to winter survival.  Hopefully lessons were learned.


UD management is fairly new to many of the NC supers managing it, this is likely the first winter where temps and duration exceeded where a single cover was sufficient in certain conditions etc.  I’ve spent many hours listening to Lingle share his wealth of knowledge on what, when , where extra protections are needed.  Memphis gets extremely cold with high winds low humidity.  He never had winter injury that I’m aware of.


The CGCSA should have him over and pick his brain on these issues, drill down specifically into his methods on preparing for winter and protecting greens under extreme cold. 

[archie_struthers]

 


One thing we know is history repeats itself. Zoysia has been seen as a wonder grass off and on since the 1960's. It's doubtful that it is IMHO. 


Zoysia promises to wear like iron and be fairly drought resistant. It is , but the ball doesn't sit up real well and there are color issues . While brown can be cool , the average consumer doesn't appreciate it for the most part, and that's an issue .  If it doesn't work , there is no easy removal.


You always look for grass that regenerates  quickly , particularly in heavy play areas or on the practice field . Anyone who is lacking lots of land knows the difficulty in keeping a practice area fresh for more than a couple of weeks at a busy golf course . A club with better players that use it for more than just a warm up know this all to well .  I've seen just a couple " range rats " take out what seems like a hectare of turf over a few practice sessions.


But I digress , zoysia remains an interesting enigma , but I'd be awfully careful to use it if it was my call !

[Edward Glidewell]

A.G.
RCC has bentgrass greens


I stopped by Sapona Ridge CC in Lexington NC on Sat to see how their Diamond greens came through the winter.  They were in great condition and had reasonable speed 9.5 my guess.  The ball wiggles a bit on roll but not enough to cause a miss, more noticeable when others putting.


I looked at  several (7) greens at Starmount Forest in Greensboro Friday, Champion ultradwarf was flawless so not everyone lost greens.  GCS Brent Gentle is right up there with the legendary Rod Lingle former of Memphis CC as “go to guys” for me when I have questions on UD management.  They understand how to manage summer, into fall/winter, winter protection and out of dormancy better than anyone imho.


The comment on how great they were last fall is a key to what happened on many courses.  It’s more than just low temps, fall plant prep (raising hoc) and winter hydration are critical to winter survival.  Hopefully lessons were learned.


UD management is fairly new to many of the NC supers managing it, this is likely the first winter where temps and duration exceeded where a single cover was sufficient in certain conditions etc.  I’ve spent many hours listening to Lingle share his wealth of knowledge on what, when , where extra protections are needed.  Memphis gets extremely cold with high winds low humidity.  He never had winter injury that I’m aware of.


The CGCSA should have him over and pick his brain on these issues, drill down specifically into his methods on preparing for winter and protecting greens under extreme cold.

I know the Sedgefield membership in general isn't especially happy with what happened to their greens and with how it's being fixed (i.e. shutting the course down for at least a month). Don't know how much of that blame falls on the superintendent and how much was just bad luck.


And yeah, I heard Starmount's greens had no problems whatsoever.

[Kris Spence]

Edward,


I’m sure any membership would be unhappy dealing with a loss of turf on greens.  The reason behind my post was to highlight a vulnerability with Bermuda under certain winter conditions and certainly not lay all the blame at the feet of the superintendent. You didn’t say that I am clarifying.


 One reason clubs are changing over from bent is a desire for healthier and higher quality greens during the summer season.  As members and players start to expect them firm and fast all the time, that is where the problem starts, same with bent.  Demanding or expecting those kinds of speeds (10+) into the fall and winter is where the danger of winter damage increases on UD.  As an example, Memphis set the standard for UD with very quick smooth greens, in order to do that and not lose their turf they used double covers under extreme cold and supplemented with pine straw between the covers in certain conditions on greens or areas of greens.  He also gradually raised the hoc heading into fall to increase cold tolerance etc.  Another factor we see is the heavier soils (higher organic) tended to do better versus the higher sand content converted bent (no till) greens that were built on 85/15 or lighter rootzones.  We are using 75/25 and 70/30 sand peat and include topsoil in some cases. 


Any process/event that weakens or stresses the UD lowers its resistance to low temps.  Traffic, shade, low hoc, poor water, excessive rain, disease etc etc.  Another of my concerns includes excessive use of ultra fine sand gradations (85)in topdressing, which tend to plug the pores near the surface and shallow up the stolon depth and vitality.  As you can see the super has his hands full handling many factors while Mother Nature is throwing 99 mph sliders in the wind!!!


As to Sedgefield, I’m not aware of the exact process for recovery, i went over and walked several greens a few weeks ago, it appeared to me approximately 15% of the green surfaces were damaged which is worse than some and much less than others.  As long as the surface contours and green shape and size is maintained during the process I will be happy.  With the PGA tour coming in August I’m sure there is a strong sense of urgency.

[A.G._Crockett]

Kris Spence,
Thank you so much for taking the time to post these replies, and thanks for the correction on Raleigh CC.  I've only played there once, and thought they had converted.

I feel for the supers more than most; my son is an assistant at Atlanta National.  I think supers would rather that their dog crap on the living room rug than that there be even a bad spot on one of their greens, and I know what has happened this spring is just killing them.

I'll say it again: Farming is a tough way to make a living!

[JMEvensky]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Kris. Hope you're well.

[Edward Glidewell]

I definitely was not placing any blame on the superintendent; I have no idea what happened there over the winter.


Thank you for the detailed reply!

[SB]

Kris,


Does it seem like there is a common thread in areas with loss?  Is there also loss in the fairways?  If I recall, in 2015, it seemed like most of the winterkill was in low/wet areas that had multiple freeze/thaw cycles.  Other years, it's mainly in high areas where desiccation is the primary culprit.  It's all called winterkill but they are entirely different issues.  I know at least one of the affected clubs had brand new greens, which is just plain bad luck.

[A.G._Crockett]

Kris,


Does it seem like there is a common thread in areas with loss?  Is there also loss in the fairways?  If I recall, in 2015, it seemed like most of the winterkill was in low/wet areas that had multiple freeze/thaw cycles.  Other years, it's mainly in high areas where desiccation is the primary culprit.  It's all called winterkill but they are entirely different issues.  I know at least one of the affected clubs had brand new greens, which is just plain bad luck.

Steve,
If there is a common factor among the courses that I know about, it would be that the greens were cut low and REALLY fast, which I think Kris Spence alluded to.  That said, there are some of those, like Starmount in Greensboro, that don't seem to have problems that I'm aware of.  I think some have speculated that newer bermuda greens with less established root systems might be more vulnerable, like Hasentree in Wake Forest, but Chapel Hill CC has new greens that seem unaffected.

So it seems that maybe there are general indicators, but no certainties in either direction?  And even at the courses that are affected, there are greens that are pretty much ok, some that are partially damaged, and some that are fully involved.  Almost like every course is a micro-climate with micro-climates within it.

I don't know how much this has in common with fairway winter kill; the covers on the green and the height of cut make the equation so different.  But I think it is probably too early to tell yet how much, if any, fairway winter kill there might be anyway.

[Ira Fishman]

I just played the front this morning at Hope Valley. The greens were mostly in good shape and the ball rolled well. The tees and fairways are not in good shape, and the heavy rain last night did not help. I hope the temps get up so that they can get everything back into shape because really like the course. Fortunately, Hope Valley hired Kris for a Master Plan. I have been lobbying for them to implement, but as a non-resident member, I understandably do not have the strongest voice.


Ira