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MCirba

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He seemed to me to be a man who was very certain of his opinion, not afraid to express it, and somewhat of an agitator and zealot for causes he believed in.  He was in love with golf.



As was Macdonald...
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 02:20:14 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Ed Homsey

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I think that if you know the full body of his work you would not characterize him in that manner.   Some of those descriptors could be applied to some of his writings, but certainly not all.   

MCirba

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Ed,


I should have been more precise in my description. I believe he was a zealot for scientific placing of Hazards and strategic architecture including those changes that he argued for and implemented at Garden City. I think he was also an agitator for the type of game he wanted to see in America across many areas beyond architecture and he used his bully pulpit as a magazine Editor to advance those views. He was not afraid to state an unpopular viewpoint.


I hope that helps clarify my opinion. Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 04:03:21 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

David_Elvins

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A great read, Mike.


Nicely done.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

BCrosby

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Well done Mike. An enjoyable read. It does seem to me that Travis was a bit of a loose cannon and that his magazine gave him the ability to give free rein to his opinions and express them widely. Is that fair comment ?

That must have been hugely frustrating to his friends. Strong words said in private don't have nearly the same resonance as those same words published. I have to say though that I'm not convinced that the banning of the putter was an attempt by the great and the good in Britain to get back at Travis for winning the championship in 1904. After all, it was 6 or 7 years later. It seems to me more likely that Travis used it as a pretext to stoke the flames of his grudge (not sure that's the right phrase but hopefully you know what I mean) of not getting the credit he thought he deserved for winning in 1904.


Niall - Yes and no. The R&A first formally regulated clubs in 1908 with a rule that said clubs must be "traditional and accepted". By way of an example, it was noted that shafts should join the head at the heel. There was an anti-shank 'Fairlie' club with a funky shaft that was cited as violating the new rule. There was no mention of the Schenectady.
It was not until about a year later, under pressure from the USGA, that Captain Burn (then the R&A rules chairman) interpreted the new rule to ban expressly the Schenectady. So while the 1908 rule was 'officially' issued to block a range of new clubs that had come on the market, most of them British, the Americans believed, probably correctly, that the R&A was delighted that the Schenectady had been caught by the rule.
The transatlantic discord triggered by the banning of the Schenectady was paramount in Low's mind when he took over as chairman of the R&A rules committee in 1913. The R&A's promulgation of the first rules limiting balls in 1921 was done in close collaboration with the USGA. (BTW, Low wanted a 'floater' standard but the USGA adamantly opposed the idea.)
Note that the Travis win in 1904 was dredged up in a series of nasty letters back and forth in 1910 or so. Travis felt he had been treated shabbily at Sandwich. Many Brits thought he had earned his treatment. And so forth. But the Travis victory was clearly on the minds of the British golfing establishment several years after the fact. There is little question that, first, Travis was not viewed as a proper gentleman by many in the upper reaches of the British golf establishment, and, second, they believed he had won with a trick putter.
As I recall the Schenectady ban was not rolled back until sometime in the 1920's.


Bob


     
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 10:51:48 AM by BCrosby »

BCrosby

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I should have included in my post above that the USGA never banned the Schenectady, a break with the R&A that caused considerable alarm and, as noted above, caused Low, Croome, Colt and others on the R&A rules committee to work closely with the USGA after the Great War to set limitations on the ball.


Bob

MCirba

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David,
Thank you very much....I'm very glad that you enjoyed the read! 

Bob,
Thank you very much for the additional information.   

Whatever the rationale behind the R&A's banning of the Schenectady, the feelings must have ran very deep as the ban wasn't lifted until 1952.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

BCrosby

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I did not know the R&A ban on the Schenectady had lingered so long.


Bob

Peter Pallotta

Not surprising that they so strongly defended the 'proper gentleman' at the exact time (and precisely because) the notion appeared to be under attack and/or dying. Decades later Mr. Hogan and certainly later still Mr. Palmer could've shown up using long handled Odyssey White Hot mallets and 46 inch, 460 cc-headed drivers and would've still been embraced.

MCirba

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For everyone who hasn't read this multi-part article yet, I thought it might be helpful to link all three parts for your convenience.

Thank you for the indulgence as I think it's a very interesting historical story about how strategic golf course architecture evolved in America and I'm rather proud to attempt to tell it.

http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/cirba-mike-walter-j-travis-dropped-at-national-golf-links-of-america-truth-or-travesty-part-one/

 http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/cirba-mike-walter-j-travis-dropped-at-national-golf-links-of-america-truth-or-travesty-part-two/

 http://golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/cirba-mike-walter-j-travis-dropped-at-national-golf-links-of-america-truth-or-travesty-part-three/
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Not surprising that they so strongly defended the 'proper gentleman' at the exact time (and precisely because) the notion appeared to be under attack and/or dying. Decades later Mr. Hogan and certainly later still Mr. Palmer could've shown up using long handled Odyssey White Hot mallets and 46 inch, 460 cc-headed drivers and would've still been embraced.
Peter,

The more one digs into the equipment issues back then you can't help but see parallels to today's debates regarding standardization (i.e. tournament ball), the distance the ball travels (i.e. guttie), "traditional" implements (i.e. Schendectady vs Long Putter), club length and clubhead size and so on...

Interestingly, both Travis and Macdonald seemed to be opposed to standardization.   Travis wrote that he was less concerned what any man used as a club if one's opponents also had the same free choice.   There was some match-play mentality in that thinking, for sure, but Travis also argued that a true champion needed to excel at both Medal and Match play and was vehemently opposed to the US Amateur dropping medal play.

The more things change...
« Last Edit: June 10, 2018, 11:23:29 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

BCrosby

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Peter -


Yes, the parallels are striking between debates in early modern golf (balls, rules, architecture) and today. Some of the old exchanges sound - almost verbatim - like modern ones. Golf, then and now, seems to pivot around the same issues.


Bob

David McIntosh

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Mike,

An excellent trilogy - thanks for sharing.

Had it been in book form I wouldn’t have been able to put it down - great work!

MCirba

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David McIntosh,

Thank you for the very kind words and I'm very heartened that you found it such a worthwhile read.

I wanted to tell/write that story for a few years now but I'm not a professional writer and the more I researched the larger the article became, until for readability sake I decided to split it into three parts.   Even then I was very concerned that in this age of bumper-sticker communications that most would find it daunting and decide to skip by, so I'm grateful you spent the time.

Given the size, it's not something I could have submitted to a magazine for publication, sadly.   Thankfully, Ran has such a great site here for publishing this type of thing for general distribution.


Best Regards,
Mike
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 10:45:08 AM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sean_A

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Mike

Many thanks and kudos for this piece.  I greatly enjoyed it.  A few questions:

Do you have any record of the 1901 Travis trip to the UK which helps with understanding how Travis later viewed golf design?

The photo on page 2, Part 3, what is the course?  The caption doesn't reveal the info and I am not sure it matches the nearby text. 
Thanks again

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 24, 2018, 07:02:31 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Ed Homsey

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Sean--This 1901 article, by Travis, provides some insight into the influence of his major golf trip throughout the UK:
https://walterjtravissociety.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/1901-impressions-of-british-golf-from-golf-mag118.pdf




Niall C

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Sean--This 1901 article, by Travis, provides some insight into the influence of his major golf trip throughout the UK:
https://walterjtravissociety.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/1901-impressions-of-british-golf-from-golf-mag118.pdf

« Last Edit: June 21, 2018, 06:57:24 AM by Niall C »

Niall C

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Hm, that worked well  :(

MCirba

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Niall,


Are you unable to download the PDF Ed linked to?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Mike


Many thanks and kudos for this piece.  I greatly enjoyed it.  A few questions:


Do you have any record of the 1901 Travis trip to the UK which helps with understanding how Travis later viewed golf design?


The photo on page 2, Part 3, what is the course?  The caption doesn't reveal the info and I am not sure it matches the nearby text. 


Thanks again


Ciao


Sean,


The photo is ostensibly of Sandwich during the Travis Hutchinson match.  Thanks for the very kind words and I'm appreciative that you enjoyed the articles.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0


Sean--This 1901 article, by Travis, provides some insight into the influence of his major golf trip throughout the UK:
https://walterjtravissociety.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/1901-impressions-of-british-golf-from-golf-mag118.pdf



Ed


Thanks.  However, I am looking for information on who Travis played with, met etc.  It is one thing to see the courses and another to be fed info on the courses and the philosophy of their designs.


Mike


Thanks for the Sandwich tip.


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

MCirba

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Sean,


On page 2 of Part One there is a Brooklyn Daily Eagle.article from August 1901 that lists some of Travis' matches during his visit.


Hope that helps.  Thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just a bit more on how long Travis was on the project at NGLA came from this June 28, 1908 Boston Globe snippet from an article discussing a new course being proposed in Massachusetts.   

It seems at that time (verified by other sources) the course was in the "grow-in" phase.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

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Here's a section of a related article from February of 1908 in the Boston Globe.   Walter Travis was a huge fan of Myopia and is likely the gentleman who made the comment hoping that the National would be as good.



« Last Edit: July 27, 2018, 12:02:21 PM by MCirba »
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
In light of this month's terrific Ed Homsey interview at the top of the page, I've been asked by a few folks to refresh this thread that focuses on followup discussion and questions concerning Walter Travis and his role at National Golf Links of America.  (Links to 3 part series above).   


Happy to answer any additional questions or field any criticisms, thanks.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/