St. Louis, MO - What gives?

[Jake Marvin]

So today, information started flowing my direction with regard to the NCCGA College Club Golf Tourney in a few weeks, which my Irish managed to qualify for through no skill/success/action on my part... that said, they have to fill out a team somehow, meaning I'll be bringing my majestic pull-hook to the big stage. Usually, these are fine events to justify my visiting of architecturally significant or at least interesting courses in addition to the somewhat bland courses the tournaments are played on due to location (Vegas, Orlando, NC, etc.). Thus, I was a bit surprised to find out we'll be visiting tropical Saint Louis, Missouri this time around.


The tournament itself is at Norwood Hills CC, which has a pair of Wayne Stiles courses that actually look somewhat stimulating, if nothing else. Other than that, there's nothing particularly exciting, to put it mildly. It's rare, especially for me, to consider a city and find so few enticing courses (SLCC, I suppose, and Bogey Club/Log Cabin, more from curiosity than anything). I'm unfamiliar with the area and curious why this is. Soil would be my guess. Maybe topography, although the pictures of Norwood Hills suggest the area has decent movement. Or just a lack of classic design due to lacking investment/development during the Golden Age? It strikes me that RTJ has a large presence in the area. So for those of you acquainted with the area, why is St. Louis (and the Missouri/southern IL area in general) lacking when it comes to golf?

[PCCraig]

It's a tough place to grow turf, for starters.


My wife is from St. Louis so I have played a fair amount of golf in the area. It's not a super great golf destination, but there are plenty of good golf courses.


St. Louis CC is really good and most here will tell you it's #1 to check out when visiting.


Bellerive gets knocked by the "journalists" who prefer every golf course look like something Gil Hanse built, but it's pretty solid and has more charm than the typical RTJ Championship course from that era. They rebuilt the bunkers a few years ago and they are now totally (top and bottom) surrounded by short grass and it's a neat look and makes the course play much different.


There is also Old Warson, which is a very nice club with a museum piece of a RTJ course from his heyday.


I just played Boone Valley, which is a PB Dye course about 30 min west of town. It's hard but it's pretty wild and fun. The overall vibe of the club is incredible and would be a fun place to hang out and play one afternoon if you are looking for someplace.


A handful of years ago I played Algonquin CC which is short by modern standards but was restored by Silva at some point and is a sneaky cool golf course from what I remember.


Forest Park isn't a great golf course right now (originally a Raynor (?) but renovated by Hale Irwin years ago), but it's in a terrific setting and if you can get out to play early one morning it's a fun place to play and maybe my favorite public course in the area (I haven't played many, though).


The Bogey/Log Cabin Club are really cool old school clubs, but I'm not sure how much architectural interest you'll find in the course(s).

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Jake,


As a St. Louisan I’ll start off by saying Pat sums up things nicely.


I grew up at Norwood Hills and how in 1922 they found Wayne Stiles I dont know, especially when Donald Ross was in his prime and building all over. Nevertheless Norwood was our Olympia Fields or Medinah, at one point being the only club in St. Louis with 36 holes and the largest membership in town until recently.


If anything our town may have embraced golf too early, as many clubs are in their 2nd or 3rd location, having been built in the late 1800s and very early 1900s by the Foulis brothers and being relocated around the “dark ages” of design.  By the time many moved the great golden age designers were gone. Though like Pat I agree that what’s hurt our rankings is that RTJ isn’t cool anymore.


Depending on the time of year I think you’ll enjoy Norwood and would recommend trying to play the back 9 of the East which in my opinion is the best 9 at the club. But it’s the shorter course and they probably have you on the West. I would also recommend going across the highway to visit Glen Echo, site the original Olympic golf matches and very similar to how it played then. When it debuted in 1901 it was considered the best golf course in the country according to old articles. I’d be happy to arrange if interested.

[Andrew Buck]

While it was before I really studied or embraced "architecture", I remember having college tournaments in the mid 90's at both Norwood Hills and Country Club of St Albans which was relatively new. 

I remember liking both courses and would enjoy another round on either.  I wouldn't say either struck me in a manner that I'd go out of way to see, but enjoyable golf that I wouldn't turn down.

I also remember playing Forest Creek around that time, and if it had a golden age architect, I sure wasn't able to appreciate it.  My lasting memory was the feeling that we were really playing in a park with kayaks and picnics with holes seemingly laid our like frisbee golf. 

[Jim Nugent]

Norwood Hills held the PGA Championship in the late 1940s, plus a few other PGA Tour events.  Back in the 1960s, it was one of St. Louis' hardest tracks.   

The original Forest Park was designed by one of the Foulis brothers, who interned with Old Tom before coming to America.  A really cool, somewhat quirky layout, that hosted the US Publinx in the 1920s.  6 par 3s (4 of them around or over 200 yards), 4 par 5s (including one nearly 600 yards and 2 others back to back), weaving in and around the St. Louis World Fair site.  While I only played Bellerive once, I liked Forest Park more as a fun layout.   

[Jim Franklin]

I have played in the Bellerive member guest the past 10 years and they have been making changes on a consistent basis. The course is dramatically improved. Trees have come down and new vistas abound. While it may not be the most stimulating architecture in the world, it is a challenging test of golf.

St Louis CC is fantastic.

St Albans has one really good course and one not so much.

Norwood is a decent place to play as well.

[David Amarnek]

St. Louis cannot possibly compete with a number of other cities for the overall quality of its golf course architecture.  Having said that, we happen to have a handful of very fine courses and clubs.  St. Louis, Old Warson, Bellerive and Westwood would have to be considered top-tier in town.  Boone Valley, Algonquin, Norwood Hills, Meadowbrook, Bogey/Log Cabin, St. Albans and Glen Echo are additional courses I enjoy, but wouldn’t make anyone’s “must play” list.


Having grown up in Philly, not one St. Louis course would crack my top 10 list there.  I’m headed back there next month to play White Manor and Applebrook for the first time and am bringing a few St. Louisans to also see Aronimink and Gulph Mills.  Merion East is unfortunately closed, but we’ll see what’s going on over there and meet up with Gil Hanse on-site.  Should be very educational for the boys!

[corey miller]

David


Now were talking....never been to STL but familiar with a few in the Philadelphia area can you give a list? STCC does not crack top 10?  If so, a lot more in Philly I need to see I would guess.

[Jim Nugent]

I have played in the Bellerive member guest the past 10 years and they have been making changes on a consistent basis. The course is dramatically improved. Trees have come down and new vistas abound.

My memory is that at the 1965 US Open, Bellerive had very few trees.  e.g. there may have been a few saplings between #1 and #10 (which mostly parallel each other), but they didn't affect play at all.  I don't recall anything blocking my view of the lower section of the course, i.e. from the second green through the ninth tee. 

Bellerive was only five years old then.  When I started checking out the course with online maps and satellites, probably 2010 or so, it shocked me to see the forest that sprouted up in and around the playing corridors. 

You guys who know the course now: do you think it's better than, say, Torrey Pines?  Doral Blue Monster? 

[Jim Franklin]

I have played in the Bellerive member guest the past 10 years and they have been making changes on a consistent basis. The course is dramatically improved. Trees have come down and new vistas abound.

My memory is that at the 1965 US Open, Bellerive had very few trees.  e.g. there may have been a few saplings between #1 and #10 (which mostly parallel each other), but they didn't affect play at all.  I don't recall anything blocking my view of the lower section of the course, i.e. from the second green through the ninth tee. 

Bellerive was only five years old then.  When I started checking out the course with online maps and satellites, probably 2010 or so, it shocked me to see the forest that sprouted up in and around the playing corridors. 

You guys who know the course now: do you think it's better than, say, Torrey Pines?  Doral Blue Monster?

I would say better than both of those. I am not a Torrey fan or a Blue Monster fan. I have not played the Blue Monster since redo though.

To answer another question, SLCC would crack my Top 10 in Philly, but nothing else would be remotely close.

[Brad Tufts]

Funny, I was just in St. Louis, and was fortunate enough to take advantage of the warm (and windy!) weather last week to play a couple rounds.  Another quirk of my past visits is that I've never played in St. Louis outside of the second half of October, and now April this year.

I've played pretty much everywhere, and I find golf in St. Louis to be diverse and interesting.  SLCC is the obvious standout, but I found Old Warson, Forest Park, Glen Echo and both courses at Norwood Hills to be fun to play.  I've only played Bellerive once, and it was good if not particularly memorable.  My one Boone Valley play was on a blustery day where the wind took much of my concentration, so I only remember it being long and penal.

My discovery this year was St. Clair CC across the river in Belleville.  It's not too long, but what a fun place!!  It's funky but fair, with a great set of greens.

I have not seen BC/LC, Algonquin, Westwood, or the back nine at St. Albans Tavern Creek...those are my "gaps."

[Jim Nugent]

Brad, I don't think you're missing anything at Log or Bogey.  Westwood used to be my second-favorite course, though I haven't seen it since 1970. 

[David Amarnek]

Corey Miller and Jim Franklin,
Upon further review, I guess I would put St. Louis CC in my top ten list, although at the very bottom.  That's not a knock on SLCC, but a testament to the quality courses found in Philly.  In no particular order, I would rate the following GAP courses above SLCC: Pine Valley, Merion East, Philly Cricket, Philly CC, Huntingdon Valley, Rolling Green, Lancaster, Stonewall Old and Gulph Mills (I'm a member).  As I mentioned earlier, I haven't played White Manor and Applebrook and a few other Philly courses, which may shake up my rankings.

[Buck Wolter]

I would put in a plug for two Keith Foster courses in the area -- Gateway National is a public course on the Illinois side that I think is a master class in what can be accomplished on a dead flat site. Persimmon Woods is a golf only club that flies way under the radar.

Normandie is a pubic Foulis that is in the same general area as Glen Echo and Norwood and has some great holes --pretty rough around the edges when I last played.

[PCCraig]

I have played in the Bellerive member guest the past 10 years and they have been making changes on a consistent basis. The course is dramatically improved. Trees have come down and new vistas abound.

My memory is that at the 1965 US Open, Bellerive had very few trees.  e.g. there may have been a few saplings between #1 and #10 (which mostly parallel each other), but they didn't affect play at all.  I don't recall anything blocking my view of the lower section of the course, i.e. from the second green through the ninth tee. 

Bellerive was only five years old then.  When I started checking out the course with online maps and satellites, probably 2010 or so, it shocked me to see the forest that sprouted up in and around the playing corridors. 

Yep. Bellerive sits on a pretty big property. Trees were planted pretty heavily over the years and scrub trees & brush were allowed to overtake some of the hillsides and in particular the side of the bluff that holes 13-14-15-16 run across.


They seem to have taken out a considerable number of trees over the past five years, primarily around greens. They have always had a number of fans near greens, and I think they have figured out that all the fanning in the world doesn't beat actual wind & air movements from from Mother Nature. They have also done a number on the remaining trees across the property, having raised the overall canopy of the vegetation 30-40ft which offers much better vistas through the property.


That brush still exists on the bluff I mentioned before, however, and that would really be something if that was cleaned up as it would offer incredible views looking down on most of the front nine from those holes.


As I said before Bellerive gets knocked on here as it's a RTJ golf course located in a "fly over" state so it isn't highly regarded like Torrey Pines or Doral, which gets talked about and seen more often. It's obviously a golf course that always has been tournaments in mind, and from the back tees it is a very difficult golf course for anyone not on TOUR. That being said, from a normal set of tees I've always found it to be a pretty balanced, fun, and attractive golf course.


There are some very good holes, in my opinion. The 5th, a longer par-4 that plays over/around a hillside and up to a green sitting up on a ridge (and next to a small cemetery recently uncovered) is a strong hole. As is the par-3 6th which has always been very difficult but features a really neat sideways mini-biarritz style green. The par-4 ninth is a really good, medium length par-4 that sharply climbs a hill for the last 150 yards of the hole. The 10th is a terrific risk reward par-5 (although it's played as a par-4 for the pros). The 12th is a fine par-3. And the 17th is a really good dogleg par-5 with a creek running down the entire right side of the hole and features a pretty wild green.


The big change a few years ago was the renovation of the bunkers which I think the PGA largely drove. They regrassed/sodded all of the surrounds of all the bunkers to short grass/fairway. So now even the greenside bunkers are surrounded, top and bottom, with short grass. I have no idea if that will affect the pros at the PGA this year, but it makes for a more unique/attractive visual look than the typical RTJ/ Reese Jones style course (East Lake, Torrey, Cog Hill, etc.) that it typically and unfairly gets compared to.

[Brad Tufts]

My guess is Bellerive would be better regarded if it wasn't on the tournament rota, but that being said I played it in 2012 or so and I don't remember too much, the opposite of how I feel about SLCC.

I will have to put Persimmon Woods on the list, I have not played there.  I doubt I'm missing a ton at BC/LC either, just a place I haven't played that has a reputation (of exclusivity more than anything).

I did play at Normandie last week, and it was early-season rough, not to mention a number of places where it needs maintenance help.  All the bunkers were a mess both condition and design-wise, and someone needs to re-expand some greens!  It has a very difficult starting hole and some very good holes to be sure.  I liked 7, 9, 10, 11green, 12, 13 (great green complex), 16 green complex was wild.  The course is full of semi-blind tee shots that complicate the line, especially for a first-timer.  The course would be a VERY strong par 69 if you called #4 and #15 par fours, the latter especially.  Also, the way #18 was playing, into a 30mph gale, made it one of the toughest finishers for me in recent memory.  After playing St. Clair #5, the 265y uphill par four a day earlier, #18 at Normandie at 249y into the fan played probably 20 yards longer! 

[Bill Shamleffer]

Brad,
Glad to hear you played and appreciated Normandie Golf Course in St. Louis.  I played a lot of rounds there.  It is a great place to play for a low greens fee, and almost a museum piece now for people to still see the remnants of what a golf course looked like in the 1920s.




Per St.Louis golf; after living the first 35 years of my life in St. Louis, and now the last 3+ years in Cincinnati, I wonder if the German immigrants just were not much in to golf.  The three most German cities in the US are probably Cincinnati, Milwaukee, and St. Louis.  All three have 1 or 2 great courses, a hand full of quality courses, and a bunch of OK courses.


Those Germans were just too busy working hard, and building music halls and art museums to spend hours playing golf.


Just a theory that popped in to my head.




Finally,
I have said this before, but Westwood is THE secret gem in St. Louis.  St Louis CC is #1 by a long shot in my opinion.  Bellerive is a classic RTJ, and Old Warson it a prime example of RTJ that is almost untouched in its 60+ years.


But Westwood is a type of course that an average golfer will think is OK, and an excellent golfer or lover of GCA will be impressed with.  It is subtle in its greatness.  Very good land movement, but never overwhelming.  I have not seen it since its restoration.  But it was always a treat to caddy out there for the many USGA qualifiers and when the Mo State Am was there in the late 80s or early 90s.




Finally,
I am volunteering this week at the Big10 Womans Champ at TPC Riverbend here in Cincy.  First time I saw this course.  It is a Palmer course, but not sure how much he actually did.  It is unfortunately one of those courses that meanders through housing.  But it has some very good holes and green complexes.  I still prefer the classics here in the older parts of Cincy.  But this is an enjoyable course.


The Symetra Tour is also visiting this TPC later this summer.  It would be great to see the LPGA here.  There is a lot of sports entertainments dollars not being spent on baseball tickets these days in Cincy (which allows me to see my Cards cheap whenever they are in Cincy).

[David Amarnek]

Bill,
Westwood is about to embark on a massive bunker restoration project with some minor renovation work starting this fall.  The work is guided by Art Schaupeter and will mostly consist of restoring every bunker with sand flashing rather than our current flat-bottom traps and converting from Mississippi River sand to Pro/Angle.  Additional fairway bunkering will be added and some green-side bunkers will be modified/removed (?!?).  We recently cleared all the bushes on the left side of #8, thus exposing the creek from the tee boxes to the start of the hill towards the green.  Looks great.


Anyone attending the 100th PGA Championship at Bellerive? 

[Bill Shamleffer]

Bill,
Westwood is about to embark on a massive bunker restoration project with some minor renovation work starting this fall.  The work is guided by Art Schaupeter and will mostly consist of restoring every bunker with sand flashing rather than our current flat-bottom traps and converting from Mississippi River sand to Pro/Angle.  Additional fairway bunkering will be added and some green-side bunkers will be modified/removed (?!?).  We recently cleared all the bushes on the left side of #8, thus exposing the creek from the tee boxes to the start of the hill towards the green.  Looks great.


Anyone attending the 100th PGA Championship at Bellerive?

David,


Thank you for the Westwood update.


I am now residing in Cincinnati, but have two brothers still in St. Louis.  One brother is an Evans Scholar alum, and is volunteering with the local Evans alums for the PGA.  I might try to come in for a weekend round.


I will post my PGA plans once I decide which round I plan on attending.

[Jim Franklin]

I am playing in Bellerive member guest in a couple weeks and might go out for the PGA as well. I will know more after member guest.

David, are you attending?

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I plan on going a couple of days. Would enjoy meeting up with you guys.

Has anyone played it recently? I heard they had serious problems with their greens as it related to a sub-air system malfunction. Has that been resolved?

[Jim Franklin]

I plan on going a couple of days. Would enjoy meeting up with you guys.

Has anyone played it recently? I heard they had serious problems with their greens as it related to a sub-air system malfunction. Has that been resolved?

They are back to usual. The Club only allowed play every other week last year in order for the course to recover and not get overly stressed. They are closing to guest play July 4 and then all play July 20. It is a HUGE sacrifice for the membership to hold this event. I can't wait to play it June 7-9.

[David Amarnek]

I do plan on attending the PGA, but I'm not sure exactly which day(s).
If my schedule allows, perhaps I can host a game for anyone interested over at Westwood.
Let me know when you guys will be in town.

[PCCraig]

I plan on going a couple of days. Would enjoy meeting up with you guys.

Has anyone played it recently? I heard they had serious problems with their greens as it related to a sub-air system malfunction. Has that been resolved?

They are back to usual. The Club only allowed play every other week last year in order for the course to recover and not get overly stressed. They are closing to guest play July 4 and then all play July 20. It is a HUGE sacrifice for the membership to hold this event. I can't wait to play it June 7-9.

They have had some serious problems with their greens, as Ryan noted, over the last ~18 months.


I don't know if I would say "back to usual." I played there three weeks ago and they were very clearly being extremely conservative in their putting surface maintenance. They seemed to be alive, but were rolling at about 7. I'm guessing they are just trying to keep them in decent shape until the tournament, but then after the PGA leaves town they will be ripped up and rebuilt pretty quickly.