Do the trees make Augusta...

[Edward Glidewell]

I've never played Augusta National, and likely never will, but I do know two people who have. They both played from the member's tees, and one was a 6 handicap and the other probably scratch if not plus (he didn't have an official handicap, but he had a golf scholarship in college and the worst round he ever played with me was a 75). The 6 handicap shot 82 and the scratch/plus player shot 74.


Of course that doesn't tell me anything about how difficult the course would be for a 15 handicap (like me) or a 25, but it seems like it may not be overly penal for a regular player. Having an ANGC caddy who can tell you exactly where to hit shots and putts is a major factor, though -- the 6 handicap almost made a hole in one on #6 because of his caddy's instruction to hit the ball on the other side of the green from the pin and let the slope feed it down. He likely wouldn't have played the shot there on his own.

[Jason Topp]

Good article from the Fried Egg:

http://www.friedegg.co/golf-courses/augusta-national-changes

[Buck Wolter]

I don't like the trees on 11 but to me the one that has always stuck out is the tee shot on 18. Having seen it in person several years ago it always amazed me how the pros seem unfazed.


Maybe the best round in major championship history gets derailed by those trees. Patrick Reed as Champion = Karma, all those green jackets have to greet him for the next 30 years.


Buck

[John Kavanaugh]

I was impartial on Reed until this week. I love the helicopter fade and have got to cheer for a cubby guy whose wife gets insulted by the media. When I saw insults about her over on B4's blog I became a fan for life. Now they're starting to pick on his caddy. That guy could be my hero.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't like the trees on 11 but to me the one that has always stuck out is the tee shot on 18. Having seen it in person several years ago it always amazed me how the pros seem unfazed.


Maybe the best round in major championship history gets derailed by those trees. Patrick Reed as Champion = Karma, all those green jackets have to greet him for the next 30 years.


Buck

Buck,


Just ask Spieth if he's unfazed.  He hit the trees on the left, not once but twice leading to bogeys both times.  Without those trees and assuming he makes two pars he's in a playoff with Reed


P.S.  I've only see it on TV and pics, but that back tee on 18 looks absurd with that narrow chute..

[Ted Sturges]

Someone above said that 11 used to be perhaps the most strategic of all the two shot holes at ANGC.  Now, the driving strategy is simply to try to hit the fairway.  What a shame.


Same thing for 17...no driving strategy there either other than to hit the damn fairway.


Same thing for 7.  If you all were riveted to your TV screens watching all those punch outs from under the trees on 7...good-on-ya. It's one of the coolest green complexes on the property and choosing which portion of the fairway to approach that day's hole location has been removed from the strategy of playing the 7th. 


John, I'm glad you are firmly on "Team Tree".  I'm more interested in watching the best players in the world challenged by having to think their way around the course vs. having to punch their way out from under the trees.


TS

[Ed Homsey]

Keep the trees.  They're an integral part of the Augusta challenge during the Masters.  Affecting wind, shot shape, strategy, and crucial recovery shots.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't think its a binary issue of trees vs no trees.  Its one of:


1) Which trees should we leave as is
2) Which ones should we prune back
3) And which ones to remove.


I would hate to see all the trees whacked down, but it seems what they did at Olympic and how it appeared to be a vast improvement could be applied at ANGC.

[mike_malone]

The best case made so far for encroaching trees has been that they are sorta ok. They are far down the list of what “ makes Augusta “. 

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Have you been to Augusta National?  Like them or not, the trees play a HUGE role in the strategy of the golf course.  It is really not that hard to figure out.
Mark

[George Pazin]

I hate 'em. Can't imagine the course is better for having them. Can't imagine the tourney is better with them. Curving a ball around a tree isn't interesting to me. The "variety" they offer is lost on me.


Having said all that, I could live with some of them if they returned 11 to an earlier version, and got rid of the silly corridor drives on 18 and 7, too. It's especially telling to me that we've seen more birdie finishes on 18 since they stretched it and added the corridor than most of the earlier years. Defining the shot and eliminating any choices seems to have helped many players (except Spieth...😏). And I wasn't rooting for Spieth, either, I was actually rooting for pretty much anyone else. (Nothing against him, just wanted fresh blood or Rory to finish his quest.)


Blah blah blah, you need trees for recovery, blah blah blah, they provide variety, blah blah blah. Nothing interesting or thoughtful about a bunch of blahs... they're just a lot of blahs.

[Jeff Schley]

I like the trees, but not for unabated tree growth without pruning.  They added trees over the years to 13, 15, 18 and others has changed the course to make it more demanding off the tee primarily.  Pruning needs to happen and narrowing the course more than it is I wouldn't be a fan of.  However trees have been a factor over the years, but not to this extent.  Keep the corridor on 18, with some pruning, but stop the plantings on the par 5's.

[Mark_Fine]

Does the term "Parkland" golf course mean anything to anyone   

Should all the pine trees at "Pine Valley" be taken down?  Should they clear out all the Cypress trees at Cypress Point?  I could go on and on.


I have taken out literally thousands of trees over the years on the various courses I have worked on but that doesn't mean I don't like trees.  I usually recommend taking them out when they either don't belong and/or are planted in the wrong places.  But not all trees are bad and the majority at Augusta National are perfectly fine and define what that property was all about. 



Trees do have a place on "some" golf courses and especially at Augusta National.

[Mike Bodo]

Buck,


Just ask Spieth if he's unfazed.  He hit the trees on the left, not once but twice leading to bogeys both times.  Without those trees and assuming he makes two pars he's in a playoff with Reed


P.S.  I've only see it on TV and pics, but that back tee on 18 looks absurd with that narrow chute..

100% Agree! It's ridiculous how narrow the chute off the tee on 18 is. There's no need for it to be that tight. It borders on the gimmicky and I'm willing to venture it was not a design element Mackenzie and Jones had in mind in defending par on that hole - at least not to that degree.

[Rich Goodale]

ANGC would be an awesome golf course if they massively chain-sawed the trees and concomitantly the completely out-of-place pine straw.  I've never seen pine straw in play on any classic course other than Augusta, and it is not a pretty feature.  "Very Dumb Blonde" comes to mind.  Great Tunamint that could be awesome.

[jeffwarne]

ANGC would be an awesome golf course if they massively chain-sawed the trees and concomitantly the completely out-of-place pine straw.  I've never seen pine straw in play on any classic course other than Augusta, and it is not a pretty feature.  "Very Dumb Blonde" comes to mind.  Great Tunamint that could be awesome.

Number one- that's not true at all-play much golf in the south?
Pine straw underneath pine trees is out of place?
Augusta CC-next door- has the exact same pine straw, Palmetto, Aiken Golf Club, Forest Hills, Midland valley just to name a few nearby have (and have had for many years) pinestraw underneath the canopy.


But if it was the only course that DID have that feature, wouldn't that uniqueness be a good thing?


without that pine straw, there would be a variety of ball eating vegetation or maintained rough, eliminating the cool shotmaking options we see when one is under the trees in a non rough lie.


Some pruning?-definitely- and elimination of some/many of the newer trees? sure
clearcutting? no and many of the giant trees we see today were planted in the courses infancy even as it was being completed.

[Rich Goodale]

ANGC would be an awesome golf course if they massively chain-sawed the trees and concomitantly the completely out-of-place pine straw.  I've never seen pine straw in play on any classic course other than Augusta, and it is not a pretty feature.  "Very Dumb Blonde" comes to mind.  Great Tunamint that could be awesome.

Number one- that's not true at all-play much golf in the south?
Pine straw underneath pine trees is out of place?
Augusta CC-next door- has the exact same pine straw, Palmetto, Aiken Golf Club, Forest Hills, Midland valley just to name a few nearby have (and have had for many years) pinestraw underneath the canopy.


But if it was the only course that DID have that feature, wouldn't that uniqueness be a good thing?


without that pine straw, there would be a variety of ball eating vegetation or maintained rough, eliminating the cool shotmaking options we see when one is under the trees in a non rough lie.


Some pruning?-definitely- and elimination of some/many of the newer trees? sure
clearcutting? no and many of the giant trees we see today were planted in the courses infancy even as it was being completed.

Jeff


You seemed to miss my second sentence which referred to "classic" courses.  Are the non-ANGC-ones which you mention "classic?"  Excellent courses I'm sure, but not game changers, which is the mantle upon which ANGC chooses to compare itself, IMHO.


Rich


PS--my long-term memory tells me that the encroaching pines and their concomitant needles are a fairly recent phenomenon.  Have I been misinformed?


rfg

[Edward Glidewell]

Jeff


You seemed to miss my second sentence which referred to "classic" courses.  Are the non-ANGC-ones which you mention "classic?"  Excellent courses I'm sure, but not game changers, which is the mantle upon which ANGC chooses to compare itself, IMHO.


Rich


PS--my long-term memory tells me that the encroaching pines and their concomitant needles are a fairly recent phenomenon.  Have I been misinformed?


rfg

Augusta Country Club and Palmetto have both been ranked among the top 100 classic courses in the United States by various publications.


You'll also find plenty of pine straw in the Pinehurst area, including at #2.


Edit: To be fair, the pine straw at most of those places isn't going to be... manicured? the way it is at Augusta National. There will be shots off of pine straw, but I don't think there are beds of nothing but pine straw like at ANGC.

[jeffwarne]

Rich
Palmetto circa 1892-redesigned by Alistair Mackenzie in 1930 when he redid ANGC
Aiken GC 1912
Forest Hillls GC Donald Ross-site of Bobby Jones 5th win i 1930
Augusta CC 1899-Donald Ross redesigned (1927ish)
Game changers? who knows but several listed in top 100 classics


and should PINEhurst clean cut and be called "Hurst"
I'm not even going to go there with PINE Needles or Mid PINES


As far as recent, ANGC has had pines since day 1 and more were added over the years.
Most recently quite a few in certain places once pine free or pine light (right of 11, 15) and quite a few added to fill i gaps on 1, 7 and 9 and few on 13. What is ugly are the circular pine beds around the new trees as opposed to one solid pine bed floor.


I've been attending since 1975 and pine needles have always been a part of the landscape and playing field-maybe slightly less so in play now with the "second cut"


Any old picture will show pine trees and needles in spades-maybe with less of a clean look-like Palmetto


Clearing all the pines off a parkland site(granted ANGC was once a nursery not a pine barren) is as silly as planting trees on a links

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks for the memories, Jeff.  I've watched the Masters very mostly on TV since the late 50's and early 60's, and I don't remember any manicured pine needles until recently, and I surely remember the fairly recent re-plantings of new trees in this decade or so.


Personally, I would love to see a Masters with much more width and much fewer patrons.  Do the masters who overlord we patrons (TV or not-TV, that is the question...} really need all the money that they rake in every year?  Just wondering.....


Slainte


Rich

[Mike Bodo]

I came across this little ditty in an awesome older ANGC thread, which shows side by side comparison diagrams of each hole at Augusta National when it opened to how it looked in 2012.


https://www.fastcodesign.com/1669422/100-ways-augusta-changed-to-make-the-masters-harder-infographic


WOW! Is about all I can say. Not only have the number of trees dramatically increased over the course of 80+ years, but they're encroaching on and choking the once open and spacial landing areas that were once part of the strategic design of the course. I'm by no means suggesting a return to the 1930's era look, but I think the pendulum has swung too much the other direction and turned what was originally intended to be a parklands course into a woodlands.

[jeffwarne]

Thanks for the memories, Jeff.  I've watched the Masters very mostly on TV since the late 50's and early 60's, and I don't remember any manicured pine needles until recently, and I surely remember the fairly recent re-plantings of new trees in this decade or so.


Personally, I would love to see a Masters with much more width and much fewer patrons.  Do the masters who overlord we patrons (TV or not-TV, that is the question...} really need all the money that they rake in every year?  Just wondering.....

I'd like to see a bit more width too, but the corridors are still massive-especially compared to other major courses.



What exactly do you think was falling from the trees in the 1950's?


But to forget the Masters for a second, Augusta CC and Palmetto where I've played since the mid 70's have had pine straw under the canopies as long as I've played there. It's a natural, low maintenance, effective ground cover. can't imagine a better ground cover.


Are they  cleaner now at ANGC? yes but pine needles have been under those trees for years between 1-9, right and left on 2, right on 3, on 7 both sides, 8 both sides(farther up on the right), 9 same, 10 same,11 not on the right until recently, 13 many more pines and straw now, 14 same as before, 15 same left - now many more pines right-17 now many more pines right-18 same .


There were 4 holes on television in the 50's and maybe a few more in the 60's(and it was black and white until 1966) so I'm sure you didn't see much straw as 15 and 17 had few trees between them and 16's a par 3! The front nine didn't make it to TV until the late 90's and left on 18 was the bunker and the old driving range until they moved the tee back a few years ago-so maybe you didn't see much pine straw on TV but it was there wherever there were pines.

[Sean_A]

I am not certain, but Rihc may be referring to the ridiculous circles of pine straw under at least some trees.  Its one of the most hokey things I have seen on a golf course.

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

I am not certain, but Rihc may be referring to the ridiculous circles of pine straw under at least some trees.  Its one of the most hokey things I have seen on a golf course.

Ciao

agreed-thats the newer ones

[Edward Glidewell]

I am not certain, but Rihc may be referring to the ridiculous circles of pine straw under at least some trees.  Its one of the most hokey things I have seen on a golf course.

Ciao

Yeah, that's typically what you find around flower beds/landscaped areas throughout the southeast to keep weeds out. I'm not sure why ANGC put it around a clump of pine trees -- I assume because they don't want any bare ground that isn't perfectly manicured to show, and they wouldn't be able to have grass fully surrounding the trees.