“Wasted” Sites

[Ira Fishman]

Which courses have not used the site well? For me, Old Head is the clear choice. I would be happy reading and sipping on a cocktail on the patio for days upon days, but content without teeing it up again.


Ira

[Matt_Cohn]

Which courses have not used the site well? For me, Old Head is the clear choice. I would be happy reading and sipping on a cocktail on the patio for days upon days, but content without teeing it up again.


Ira

Sandpiper. I can't tell you exactly what they should have done. I had fun playing it, and there are some good holes (10, 11, 13),[size=78%] [/size][/size]but with 1/2+ mile of oceanfront it clearly underachieved. [size=78%]

[Joel_Stewart]

Half Moon Bay in California.  One dramatic hole on the ocean a couple of others are OK but the majority just a waste.

[Matt_Cohn]

Half Moon Bay in California.  One dramatic hole on the ocean a couple of others are OK but the majority just a waste.

Oh yeah, that too. The Old Course specifically.


Sandpiper and HMB Old are both seaside courses but everything other than the cliffside itself is pretty bland. But still.

[Garland Bayley]

Isn't the poster boy for this topic Sandpines?

[Matt Dawson]

Doonbeg.


I understand the environmental concerns were paramount, but playing it really brings home what could have been. After a great first hole with the green site under a huge dune, you think you are in for a real treat.


Then you are led along a series of so-so holes on flat pasture-type land with cows grazing alongside. Tantalisingly next to you are wonderful rolling dunes that are cordoned off with wire fencing. You can't even go in there (or couldn't a couple of years ago)


I mean it's not bad, but could have been so much better

[Adam Lawrence]

Perry Dye's Lykia Links in Turkey is the poster boy here for me. Beautiful range of sand dunes next to the Med, a beach on which sea turtles nest, and he bulldozed the middle of the site to build a lake around which he could wrap the cliched Dye ninth and eighteenth.

[Mark Pearce]

Nordwijkse.  It's a really good (and very tough) course.  But it's an all-world site.  Perhaps not a "wasted" site but an opportunity lost.

[Adam Lawrence]

Nordwijkse.  It's a really good (and very tough) course.  But it's an all-world site.  Perhaps not a "wasted" site but an opportunity lost.

Yes, agreed. One can only dream of what Colt would have produced if he'd got to work on that site.

[Sean_A]

A site that stands out for me is Hillside.  The back nine has more potential than what we see now. 

I might also add Pyle & Kenfig.  People rave about the back nine, meh.  Its okay, but in many ways Colt's front nine on fairly non-descript land is more interesting.

Ciao

[Adam Lawrence]

A site that stands out for me is Hillside.  The back nine has more potential than what we see now. 

I agree, but I wouldn't get your hopes up, because the club doesn't -- they think their course is top 10 in England.

[Jon Wiggett]

A site that stands out for me is Hillside.  The back nine has more potential than what we see now. 

Could not agree more Sean. Front nine whilst not spectacular gets the most out of the land it is laid out up on but the back nine especially after the 12th is a big missed opportunity though I do not mind the last.


Jon

[Thomas Dai]

.....Pyle & Kenfig.  People rave about the back nine, meh.  Its okay, but in many ways Colt's front nine on fairly non-descript land is more interesting.

+1 on P&K.


I might be inclined to no nominate Tenby. It’s quite a long walk anyway and there’s quite a bit of good looking land available on the seaward side of the railway, even around the clubhouse. I’m not really convinced they need to have the 3 holes on the other side of the railway. Be interesting to see what an architect could come up with in terms of revised routing.


Atb

[Niall C]

The most striking missed opportunity for me is the second course at Moray GC. Originally a nine hole course it was turned into an 18 hole course in the 1970’s with Henry Cotton putting his name to it. What the club now has is a good length course with a nice enough routing but other than what is left of the original holes, the course is fairly featureless and bland. Quite an accomplishment given the ground they had to play with !

I can’t help thinking they could improve the course dramatically if they lifted the turf off the greens, pushed about some dirt and relayed the turf. At present quite a lot of the greens are like shallow upturned saucers with little by way of interest. Add in a minimal amount of bunkering to create some strategy and you would have a far better course IMO.

Niall

[Ryan Coles]

Broadstone and Hankley Common for me.


Two examples where the site outshines the course in the ground.

[Tom_Doak]

These are interesting threads for me because people assume too much.


I spent quite a bit of time studying the first two sites mentioned- Old Head for the original design, and Sandpines for a potential remodel - and I couldn't come up with anything much better than what's there, assuming you can't cut and fill along the coastline.


Sometimes, the site LOOKS good but there just isn't a really great solution to the puzzle.  Or maybe I'm just not smart enough to see it, but somebody else will, someday.


So for me, wasted sites are more a matter of inferior shaping and construction work.  That covers the whole range from Eddie Hackett at Carne (not enough money or shaping talent) to Perry Dye (too much money and ambition), and everybody in between who couldn't leave well enough alone.

[Garland Bayley]

I spent quite a bit of time studying the first two sites mentioned- Old Head for the original design, and Sandpines for a potential remodel - and I couldn't come up with anything much better than what's there,

My understanding is that they bulldozed dunes at Sandpines, because they thought they were to severe to work with. Looking at a remodel would not show that. I felt the biggest disappointment ever walking off after play there. By contrast, Ocean Dunes in the same town has the big dunes, and did not disappoint.

[Kalen Braley]

I spent quite a bit of time studying the first two sites mentioned- Old Head for the original design, and Sandpines for a potential remodel - and I couldn't come up with anything much better than what's there,

My understanding is that they bulldozed dunes at Sandpines, because they thought they were to severe to work with. Looking at a remodel would not show that. I felt the biggest disappointment ever walking off after play there. By contrast, Ocean Dunes in the same town has the big dunes, and did not disappoint.

I think Tom meant Sandpiper as there is no Coastline at Sandpines...


P.S.  The current image on Google Maps shows one of the holes at Sandpines getting hammered by that big dune just to the north of the course.

[Jim Nugent]

Never played it, but I used to hear Longaberger in Ohio fit the bill.

I did play Half Moon Bay, the old course, back in 1987.  Front nine played like a real estate tract.  Back nine had its moments, especially the last hole that ran along the ocean, but overall a big meh.   

[Kalen Braley]

Never played it, but I used to hear Longaberger in Ohio fit the bill.

I did play Half Moon Bay, the old course, back in 1987.  Front nine played like a real estate tract.  Back nine had its moments, especially the last hole that ran along the ocean, but overall a big meh.

C'mon Jim,


At $250 for a prime weekend tee time, its a bargain! 

[Mark Pearce]

Broadstone and Hankley Common for me.


Two examples where the site outshines the course in the ground.

Hankley's a very good shout.

[Ben Malach]

Honestly, I can't think of a better example of this than the 36 hole complex at Kananaskis. Originally built in the late 80's by Robert Trent Jones. The course is the perfect example of what happens when you design a course on paper rather than on the ground. None of the bunkers, tee shot, greens, and holes make sense in the context of the mountains, weaving streams, and roaring rivers that highlight the property. The insult on top of the injury is that due to major flood damage the course has been rebuilt over the past 4 years. During this renovation effort the same mistakes are being repeated and in some ways the renovation is more egregious as they have actively ignored a major positive trends in this industry.

[Matthew Petersen]

Places like Torrey Pines (South) and Sandpiper are big candidates for me.


Doak and others I know have pointed out that these are not actually world class sites because of various issues with the coastline and fair enough. I'm not necessarily arguing that world class courses could have been built there. But much better courses could be there. Even TP North is a far superior experience to what the South offers, which is a joyless slog, with nice views.

[Ira Fishman]

These are interesting threads for me because people assume too much.


I spent quite a bit of time studying the first two sites mentioned- Old Head for the original design, and Sandpines for a potential remodel - and I couldn't come up with anything much better than what's there, assuming you can't cut and fill along the coastline.


Sometimes, the site LOOKS good but there just isn't a really great solution to the puzzle.  Or maybe I'm just not smart enough to see it, but somebody else will, someday.


So for me, wasted sites are more a matter of inferior shaping and construction work.  That covers the whole range from Eddie Hackett at Carne (not enough money or shaping talent) to Perry Dye (too much money and ambition), and everybody in between who couldn't leave well enough alone.

Tom, I have played only two of your courses, but I am quite certain that you would not have routed the site at Old Head to produce Numbers 10, 17 and 18 let alone some of the interior holes on the front nine.


Ira

[Angela Moser]

GC of Houston 


No idea what the land was before... No idea what the restrictions were... still, the greatest part of the Houston Open was to watch the Pros on the Driving Range. Could have saved getting lost on that long walk between 1 green & 2 tee...