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Addison King

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Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« on: May 18, 2021, 12:25:00 PM »
It is my understanding that there were plans for a second course at Yeamans and Fishers Island. It is hard to imagine 36 holes of Raynor on the same property.


This topic might have already been discussed and if so I apologize.


Do the Raynor drawings/plans for either course still exist? If so it would be really interesting to see how he handled the repetition of templates on the same property.


Was construction ever started on either project and then stalled by the Great Depression or were these more conceptual in nature?


I don't believe that any 36 hole Raynor facilities exist but it is fun to dream about!

Tim Martin

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2021, 01:20:22 PM »
Sorry-See below.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 01:22:59 PM by Tim Martin »

Tim Martin

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2021, 01:22:26 PM »
Yale was originally slated for two courses as evidenced by the plan on display in the clubhouse. Unfortunately the second was never built.

Mike_Trenham

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2021, 01:53:21 PM »
It’s my understanding that the second course at Yeaman’s Hall was designed by Donald Ross and that the land is still owned by the club and unimproved.
Proud member of a Doak 3.


Joel_Stewart

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2021, 05:24:32 PM »
It’s my understanding that the second course at Yeaman’s Hall was designed by Donald Ross and that the land is still owned by the club and unimproved.


A quick Google aerial search showed you're correct, there's quite a bit of land available but I'm not sure its buildable. The Cooper river flows around the outside edges of the property.


There was a second course planned at Riviera as well. 

JC Urbina

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2021, 07:55:07 PM »
Regarding Yeamans Hall.


The Olmsted Brothers  plan called for an additional nine holes.  If you have ever been to Yeamans Hall the entrance road and open space that greets you was the 8th hole.


The current practice ground was in the fairway of the 9th hole.  The diagrams do not show specifics to the types of holes only the corridor and the par of the course. 


Very interesting ground for the nine hole course.  I spent time looking at all of the holes with the former super Jim Yonce back in the late 90's while I was doing the first iteration of the greens at Yeamans.   As an interesting side note the bunkers and green shapes for the Seth Raynor design were specific and depicted the Ideal holes as described in many of his works.  The nine hole layout has no bunkering or green shapes that one could discern the style of its design.   


Which leads me to believe that it was more of a dream for  the developer and not a working drawing of a Raynor design.


« Last Edit: May 18, 2021, 08:53:05 PM by JC Urbina »

Bill Brightly

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2021, 08:38:11 PM »
I'm pretty certain Raynor drew THREE courses at Fishers Island!

BCrosby

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2021, 08:16:53 AM »
JC - Years ago a routing plan hung in the locker room at Yeamans. My memory of it is fuzzy, but it was for more than 18 holes. Would that plan have shown the corridors for Raynor's unbuilt nine?


I was recently told by a long time member that Yeamans owns about 1700 acres. They have plenty of room for more golf holes, but little reason to build them given the size of the club.


Bob 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2021, 08:53:42 AM »
It’s my understanding that the second course at Yeaman’s Hall was designed by Donald Ross and that the land is still owned by the club and unimproved.


A quick Google aerial search showed you're correct, there's quite a bit of land available but I'm not sure its buildable. The Cooper river flows around the outside edges of the property.



The Ross involvement at YH was a good number of years before Raynor did his design.


Jan. 28, 1917 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -





Here's the 1924 Olmsted Plan of Raynor's design for 36 holes (not just an extra 9) -





There is a map of the additional 18 at Fishers, but its a bit hard to decipher unless you have a large version.





Gibson Island is another example of a MacRaynor where 36 where planned but not fully built.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

BCrosby

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2021, 09:39:42 AM »
Terrific Sven. That was the Olmsted plan that hung in the men's locker room at one time.


The earlier Ross involvement is news to me.


Bob
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 09:44:51 AM by BCrosby »

Bret Lawrence

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Re: Second course: Yeamans Hall and Fishers Island
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2021, 09:56:49 AM »
I think it’s pretty easy to imagine a 36-hole Seth Raynor golf course design. He would use some famous templates, he would use some not so famous templates and he would integrate these features and concepts into the piece of land he was given. He may even find a few natural holes along the way.  What’s the big deal if each course has a Short, Eden, Biarritz and Redan?  Have we played too many of these to turn down the second 18?


If you could play Yale today would you turn down a round at Fishers Island tomorrow, because the Par 3’s are built on the same concept?  If you could play Chicago Golf Club today, would you turn down a round at Shoreacres tomorrow?  Raynor’s holes were based on the the same concepts, but they were different.  Different holes were stars of the show at different places.


I think we can ask this question about any architect?  Does a 36-hole Donald Ross course have 36 completely unique holes and greens?  Does a 36-hole Geoffrey Cornish design keep you interested from start to finish?  Would you rather play a 36-hole course designed by Seth Raynor with two different Biarritz, Short, Edens and Redans or take your chances on a 36-hole designed Al Zikorus course where 7 holes might be exactly the same on one 18?  I think the thought process is more based on hypothetical then reality.  No offense to Mr. Cornish or Mr. Zikorus, but I would rather play a 36-hole Raynor course any day of the week, if one still existed.


Raynor drew 36-hole plans for several clubs:


Yeamans Hall-never built




Fishers Island-never built


Yale-never built


Gibson Island-never built


Del Monte Golf Links-never built


Monterey Peninsula CC- One of two courses built, but redesigned since.


Greenbrier-Up until the 1970’s the Greenbrier had two Mac/Raynor courses, the Greenbrier was redesigned by Nicklaus


Essex County Country Club-Raynor redesigned 18 holes and Banks built an entirely new 18 holes next door.  These two courses still exist, but only one is owned by Essex County CC, the other is now public.


Everglades- Seth Raynor built the original 9-hole course at the Everglades, then went on to build 18 new holes for Paris Singer on the site of what is today’s North Palm Beach, later redesigned by Nicklaus.  Raynor had also laid out another 18-hole course for Paris Singer at Cragin Park, but this course was never finished because of Singer’s financial problems with the Everglades. All together, Raynor designed at least 45 holes for Paris Singer.


Mid-Ocean and Castle Harbour were also very close neighbors. Raynor did design an additional 9 for Mid-Ocean using some of the land Castle Harbour (Tuckers Point) sits on today, but that design was never built.  Instead, Banks came in after Raynor passed away and designed a new 18-hole course using additional land available at the time.


The Olmsted Brothers were very good at what they did. They often looked years into the future when they planned these developments, so many times the second 18 was more of a conceptual backup plan if the development was very successful and the first course became crowded.  Some of these architects were very difficult to get a hold in the 1920’s, so when they had the architect on site they would maximize their visit.  There are also instances where some of the land planners, like Dawson and Whiting would actually lay out a golf course plan, especially when they couldn't get in touch with an architect and they wanted to move forward on the project.  They needed to know what land was earmarked for golf course vs. development.


When Raynor showed up at Mountain Lake in 1916, Frederick Olmsted had already determined the corridors for the first 4 holes and the last two holes.  Some of the Yeamans Hall maps representing  the additional 9 or 18 holes showed open ended corridors, meaning the land planners had determined the corridors  for the golf course, but not the direction of the golf course.  You couldn’t tell if the course was going clockwise or counter clockwise, it was open ended for the architects interpretation. Each Olmsted project was different, in some cases Raynor or Banks would be called into lay out a golf course and they would recommend the Olmsteds to the developers after they designed the course.  This happened at Mid-Ocean and Caracas.  Other times the Olmsted Brothers called in the architects to develop a plan, so they would know what land they should set aside for golf course development.  And on a few occasions, the development was already under way and the land planners had to determine which land would be used for the golf course and Raynor/Banks would have to figure out a plan based on the land available.

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