[V. Kmetz]

It’s still the same pressure, and the shot still needs to be executed.  On certain days I hit my 5 waayyy better than my 9.  Your logic holds no weight.

And your individual experience holds no hegemony over the fact that the greater the loft of the club used (excluding a putter), the closer the proximity to the target... but if you're obstinate to the basic truth of that, then enjoy the sky looking plaid...


(I see that JW has already made the refutation...but it deserves repeated de-construction)


cheers  vk

[Jim Nugent]

Long irons from the top guys?  2, 4, 8, 15?

Jack hit 5 iron into 18 in '86 and left it short!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYZMAHkwRMg

And Norman flared 4-iron when he could have won or tied it...there's the distance effect in a nutshell...a shot which leaves a mid-iron is not as demanding as one requiring a short iron.

Norman, moronically IMO, hit 3-wood off the tee.  If not for bad decisions he might have won ten majors.   

My memory is that Nicklaus mishit his tee shot somewhat on 18.  But he also hit 5-iron on 16.  What do they hit now, 8 irons or less to the back pin? 

I doubt the Masters takes the lead on capping the ball.  Too much risk that shorter distances weaken their brand.     

[Jim Hoak]

Looking at the reasons for the ball going farther, the increase in athleticism of the players is often mentioned.  I can't verify this, and I can't remember where exactly I read it, but I saw that the average shoe size of PGA Tour players has gone from 9 1/2 to 11 1/2 over the past few decades.  The average golfer certainly looks taller and bigger and stronger than in prior years.

Jim sorry but I did get a chuckle on the shoe size data point, we are indeed digging deep.  Basically means guys are taller with longer limbs to produce more clubheqd speed.

Jeff, valid chuckle.  We are digging deep, and it will probably get worse.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

making the transition to a different ball would not be such a huge thing for the pros. I certainly cannot imagine anyone boycotting the event if they were required to play a 'Master's Ball'. It is the obvious and most straight forward way to approach the idea which gets the R&A and USGA off the hook whilst trialling a shorter ball. If it does the job then roll it out, if not then don't introduce it.

Tell that to the guy still playing the 2011 Pro V1x because he doesn't like the tiny changes they've made since then. Pros failed to adjust to the 15% at the WGC Mexico tournament… didn't you see balls flying 20 yards over the back of the green? A Masters Ball would behave differently off every club, and on short game shots, etc. too. It'd require months to learn at their level.

A "Masters Ball" would be a joke. May as well put the Masters in December with the other silly season events.

[Jon Wiggett]

making the transition to a different ball would not be such a huge thing for the pros. I certainly cannot imagine anyone boycotting the event if they were required to play a 'Master's Ball'. It is the obvious and most straight forward way to approach the idea which gets the R&A and USGA off the hook whilst trialling a shorter ball. If it does the job then roll it out, if not then don't introduce it.

Tell that to the guy still playing the 2011 Pro V1x because he doesn't like the tiny changes they've made since then. Pros failed to adjust to the 15% at the WGC Mexico tournament… didn't you see balls flying 20 yards over the back of the green? A Masters Ball would behave differently off every club, and on short game shots, etc. too. It'd require months to learn at their level.

A "Masters Ball" would be a joke. May as well put the Masters in December with the other silly season events.

Nice to hear a voice of reason Erik using such balanced language to back up general vague statement I heard a friend of a friend and so on.


Lets look at them. The guy playing the 2011 Pro Vx1 must have a name surely! Where is he still getting hold of these vintage balls. Does he have a stockpile of them somewhere or is it that they are still part of the standard range of balls being produced?


As with Mexico the European Tour plays every year at Crans Montana in Switzerland where the ball flies considerably further. They have no problem with the full shots as this is a simple calculation but it does take a while for them to adjust to the feel shots in the 50 to 10 yard range. I did indeed notice the odd ball going long but then that happens every week not just in Mexico. Augusta would still be at the same sea level it is every year and as with other restricted length balls it would only be noticeable on the longer shots 4/5 iron upwards not the shorter ones.


Jon

[John Kavanaugh]

Does anyone really believe that the USGA would change the rules for OB and lost ball, in ways that penalizes short straight hitters, and then introduce a shorter ball? 

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Nice to hear a voice of reason Erik using such balanced language to back up general vague statement I heard a friend of a friend and so on.

Lets look at them. The guy playing the 2011 Pro Vx1 must have a name surely! Where is he still getting hold of these vintage balls. Does he have a stockpile of them somewhere or is it that they are still part of the standard range of balls being produced?

Surely you know that PGA Tour players will often stick with a ball that's a few years old. I assumed this wouldn't shock you as many people understand this to be fairly common knowledge. They don't all upgrade immediately, and players will sometimes use a ball that's one or two generations old.

Saying 2011 may have been a stretch (I keep forgetting that it's 2018…), but I know of a player who used a 2013 model Titleist ball at the Memorial last year.

[Mike Sweeney]

Saying 2011 may have been a stretch (I keep forgetting that it's 2018…), but I know of a player who used a 2013 model Titleist ball at the Memorial last year.

Okay so that's one player out of 120, or rather 0.8333333% that held onto a 5 year old ball. It has been awhile since stats class, but I think that is small.

Surely you know that PGA Tour players will often stick with a ball that's a few years old. I assumed this wouldn't shock you as many people understand this to be fairly common knowledge. They don't all upgrade immediately, and players will sometimes use a ball that's one or two generations old.

Back to Jon's point, do you have any data to support this?

I am not sure why a Teaching Pro would resist this change as it would surely create more demand for your services.

[John Kavanaugh]

Another old short hitter won today. We need change!!!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Okay so that's one player out of 120, or rather 0.8333333% that held onto a 5 year old ball. It has been awhile since stats class, but I think that is small.

Several players are not playing the absolute latest golf ball, just as many players will keep an older driver but put the new head cover on it. Or keep their old wedge models, or 3W, or whatever.

I've been out on Tour as many others have, and I don't have the data in a chart - you can find the Darrell Survey people for that, though I don't know if they know the model years of the balls or just write down "Pro V1" - but it's more common than you all seem to think.

I am not sure why a Teaching Pro would resist this change as it would surely create more demand for your services.

I think the opposite is more likely. But, long story short, I don't even agree with the premise that there's a "problem" in need of a solution.

[Mike Sweeney]

you can find the Darrell Survey people for that,

When I go the Darrell Survey website, they list their webpages as "Plain" in Wordpress - http://darrellsurvey.com/?page_id=13


http://www.wpbeginner.com/wp-tutorials/how-to-create-custom-permalinks-in-wordpress/


That simply kills their credibility to accumulate data for me. This would be covered in a WordPress 101 seminar.


This is the problem with legacy systems in golf. They have dated and tired thinking driven by centralized legacy groups (USGA and PGA). That is my opinion, see below.

I've been out on Tour as many others have,

I have absolutely no idea what that means. I caddied for one tournament on the Senior PGA Tour at Newport Country Club for Jerry Barber way way back in the day. I obviously don't think that qualifies me as "out on Tour". Can you be specific with your data/statement of being on Tour?

I don't want to have a tit for tat type of back and forth. Most of what I have expressed on this website is my opinion as a golfer and a genuinely curious person. You have a habit of saying things as if they are fact, when they are your opinion. Opinions are great, and that is one of the purposes of a discussion group - to share opinions.

[Jon Wiggett]

Nice to hear a voice of reason Erik using such balanced language to back up general vague statement I heard a friend of a friend and so on.

Lets look at them. The guy playing the 2011 Pro Vx1 must have a name surely! Where is he still getting hold of these vintage balls. Does he have a stockpile of them somewhere or is it that they are still part of the standard range of balls being produced?

Surely you know that PGA Tour players will often stick with a ball that's a few years old. I assumed this wouldn't shock you as many people understand this to be fairly common knowledge. They don't all upgrade immediately, and players will sometimes use a ball that's one or two generations old.

Saying 2011 may have been a stretch (I keep forgetting that it's 2018…), but I know of a player who used a 2013 model Titleist ball at the Memorial last year.

Erik,


it is always best to stick to the facts or at least qualify statements so as to make clear how reliable the source information is. Having admitted the 2011 quote was hype and that you struggle to know what year it is (let alone what day) you then go on to repeat offend with 'but I know of a player.......' At the very least you need to name the player or qualify why you cannot otherwise it just looks like more vague crap being spouted.


Jon

[Erik J. Barzeski]

That simply kills their credibility to accumulate data for me. This would be covered in a WordPress 101 seminar.

Okay. They're only relied upon by just about every major equipment manufacturer and provide detailed information each week. They're the basis for companies getting to legally say things like "most used ball on the PGA Tour" or "#1 driver on the PGA Tour" or whatever, and have been for decades.

I don't want to have a tit for tat type of back and forth. Most of what I have expressed on this website is my opinion as a golfer and a genuinely curious person. You have a habit of saying things as if they are fact, when they are your opinion. Opinions are great, and that is one of the purposes of a discussion group - to share opinions.

It's not an opinion that a number of PGA Tour players play older golf balls and don't immediately switch to the new ones. It's an opinion that adjusting to a new ball takes more time than a few days, yes, but that's borne out of experience. Like this one: Sergio Garcia took months to work with and adjust to the first TaylorMade Tour ball when he switched a little over a decade ago, when he left Titleist's ball (Dean Snell and TaylorMade had a nice event down at Reynolds Plantation the weekend before The Masters that year).

It's not my opinion that players didn't adjust their distances very well at the WGC-Mexico, despite that being with the same ball and doing a "simple" 15% calculation (that wasn't always accurate, given different spins and trajectories the guys might play). The course was playing roughly 6300 yards, adjusted for yardage, and the scoring was pretty high. Watching the telecast, you'd see multiple guys - far more than usual - flying the greens by wide, wide margins.

My only real "opinion" in this is that there's not a "problem" in need of solving. If you want to disregard the Darrell Survey because they don't use the custom URLs available in WordPress… that's your choice. But it doesn't make the reporting they do any less factual.

I've been to multiple PGA Tour stops per year for the last 15 years. I've been there as an instructor, I've been there as a media member. I've walked inside the ropes, been in the equipment vans. Multiple guys play older models of golf balls, just the same as they keep an older driver they really like, but slap a new head cover on it. That's not an opinion.

Jon, I'm not going to name names simply because it's not what you do. Just like Hank Haney shouldn't have written his book, outing a player known to be playing an older ball doesn't make the player or his equipment contract people happy. Tiger Woods, though, played an older model ball for years. He also kept his Titleist PT 3-wood in the bag for years, despite "better" models of 3-wood coming out. Majors have been won by players using "older" or outdated models of golf ball. Tiger's well known for this, so I'm not "outing" him much at all.

Don't believe me if you don't want to. It really won't change my day. But these facts and experiences have informed my opinion that switching to an entirely new ball is not as simple as hitting a few on Trackman for a few days and being good to go.

[Jim Nugent]

I like Erik's posts.  He gives me a lot to think about.  A brief online search suggests he knows a lot about the game. 

[Kalen Braley]

I still think the primary point is lost in all this.


Its not about whether or not players can adjust, we know they can.  Its about how much time will they have to adjust.


I've never advocated a blind "get your balls on the 1st tee" approach.  Its about taking time to experiment with different ball weights, spin, dimpling, etc and thru exhaustive testing to arrive at an "OK we think have a ball that's about right."


And then you hand out these balls months in advance of the season so the golfers play practice rounds with them, with hours and hours of range time.  Maybe make a few tweaks along the way, and hand out balls again.


And then you draw a line in the sand and say as of Jan 1, 20XX, this is now the new PGA tournament ball for this year


But it doesn't stop there, you gather more data, see how far they're hitting them, with what clubs,  see what kind of shots they're producing, etc.  Then rinse and repeat the feedback/tweaking process in the offseason for the next one.  Its not a static thing...and I suspect ball manufacturs are already doing this...

[JMEvensky]

I like Erik's posts.  He gives me a lot to think about.  A brief online search suggests he knows a lot about the game.

Same here. But as one who would like to see all I&B reined in somewhat, I just wish he didn't advocate his position so articulately.

[Mike Sweeney]

Don't believe me if you don't want to. It really won't change my day. But these facts and experiences have informed my opinion that switching to an entirely new ball is not as simple as hitting a few on Trackman for a few days and being good to go.

Nobody has suggested this in any way.


I am sorry, but you are part of "the system" that got us to this place of tearing apart historic club courses (Merion and Shinnecock for me). Personally, I am cool if they go to Erin Hills every year, but I just don't like the fact that the USGA and PGA dictate these ridiculous and costly changes where we flatten greens, narrow fairways, and make every bunker perfect at ridiculous cost at historic courses.


Once again I mention the following which nobody in golf has a good answer for - golf is the only competitive sport where the ball IS NOT supplied to the competitors by the organization running the event. Yes, it has always been that way, but that does not make it correct. Find me another sport where the competitor brings his own balls to the game?

[Kalen Braley]

[JESII]

Mike, the variance in the balls any of the guys on tour play is so small you and I wouldn’t notice...seriously.


What would be accomplished by handing them a sleeve on the first tee?




Eric, do you disagree that the vast majority of guys would be able to play with a significantly shorter ball in short order?  Your examples are about testing and perfecting in order to switch as opposed to simply being comfortable enough to go.

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike, the variance in the balls any of the guys on tour play is so small you and I wouldn’t notice...seriously.


What would be accomplished by handing them a sleeve on the first tee?

Well I want say "because then I win an argument on GCA.com", but I have been informed by the Irish Mafia off-line that Marble Players and Bowlers also show up with their own balls !! 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_ball


Kalen,


Brady used the NFL supplied balls. He just cheated the process, and everyone from New England and Columbia take it easy. I get it, he just got caught first

[Joe Bausch]

Don't believe me if you don't want to. It really won't change my day. But these facts and experiences have informed my opinion that switching to an entirely new ball is not as simple as hitting a few on Trackman for a few days and being good to go.

Nobody has suggested this in any way.


I am sorry, but you are part of "the system" that got us to this place of tearing apart historic club courses (Merion and Shinnecock for me). Personally, I am cool if they go to Erin Hills every year, but I just don't like the fact that the USGA and PGA dictate these ridiculous and costly changes where we flatten greens, narrow fairways, and make every bunker perfect at ridiculous cost at historic courses.


Once again I mention the following which nobody in golf has a good answer for - golf is the only competitive sport where the ball IS NOT supplied to the competitors by the organization running the event. Yes, it has always been that way, but that does not make it correct. Find me another sport where the competitor brings his own balls to the game?

Bowling?!

[Mike Sweeney]

Bowling?!

Matt Ward,


Feel free to read the post above yours!! (#44)


Villanova 75 Michigan 71 !!

[Kalen Braley]

Its true about bowling.....


But then again, they have highly regulated bowling lanes..and its not like any bowling allies have been obsoleted by the modern bowling ball, but I could be wrong on that!


P.S.  Mike couldn't resist with the Brady pic! 

[Jon Wiggett]

The problem Erik has in his point is when making his initial post he started off using generalities from unnamed sources without qualifying them and presents them as cast iron facts that affect all players which is a very poor way to argue. When questioned on this post he admits to basically exaggerating and stretching the truth but in later posts returns to the same methods.


Yes he is correct that SOME players stay with the same ball and clubs for quite a long time even when newer editions are on the market. Yes, he is correct that SOME players struggle when they change equipment whether this is ball or club. However, this is not proof that all players are this way as he tries to insinuate nor that players struggling to play well are doing so due to the equipment change. A few examples whether named or not does not prove the rule as Erik would like.

There are countless cases of players playing great after picking up this club or that on the range and trying it. The same with a new ball. So when someone claims that tour players are so finely tuned to their equipment that changing it takes them ages to adjust I am afraid you have to look at the evidence on BOTH sides of the spectrum and then make a judgement which in this case has to be that Erik's assertion that 'it take professionals ages to adjust so they won't play the Masters if a tournament ball is introduced' is claptrap. There might be the odd player who might (though I doubt it) skip the Masters but the vast majority of them will still play and I am sure the Masters will still have a very strong field.

[Jim Nugent]

I am sorry, but you are part of "the system" that got us to this place of tearing apart historic club courses (Merion and Shinnecock for me).

"The system" has been in place for, what, 120 years?  All the complaints and warnings about new technology making courses obsolete go back at least to the early 1900s, and maybe before that.  So far it's proven impossible to stop the march of progress, though.  What makes things different this time? 

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