Rethinking template holes

[BVince]

With all the great work in the "modern" era of course design, are there holes that you have seen that could inspire a new wave of templates?  If so, what courses and holes?  What types of terrain or features would need to be available to artistically recreate their greatness?  Lastly, if you were building a template style golf course, would you stick the the classic, modern, or a blend of old and new to layout your proposed 18 templates?

[Cal Seifert]

As fun as the biarritz holes are, the days of running a low shot through the swale are long gone for most golfers that fly a 5 iron to a back pin.  And I know lengthening the hole could change that but good luck convincing a normal recreational golfer that using a driver on a par 3 is the way it is intended to play. 

[Jake Marvin]

I've asked the same question of myself before, and to me the problems in finding modern template holes are twofold:


1. Many great modern holes are versions of, variations of, or inspired by the classic templates.


2. Many great modern holes are built on unique sites with distinct landforms that couldn't be replicated without significant, unnatural-looking earthmoving. This is especially so because the minimalists responsible for this Golden Age focus on using what the land gives them. Of course, someone could replicate such features if they wanted to, but I'd bet much of the effect would be lost in unnatural settings. There's a reason most template courses (the Bear's Best kind, not the Raynor kind) are utter bores.


There are probably exceptions out there. I just struggle to find them.

[Jim Nugent]

A knock-off on #16 at CPC, i.e. a long (ultra-long for + handicaps) heroic tee shot to the green, or a safe, short bailout that leaves you a wedge or so to try and save par. 

[Kevin Neary]

A knock-off on #16 at CPC, i.e. a long (ultra-long for + handicaps) heroic tee shot to the green, or a safe, short bailout that leaves you a wedge or so to try and save par.

Certainly a solid hole, but does that not require some unique land formation, such as a quarry, or an ocean?

[Jeff Schley]

A knock-off on #16 at CPC, i.e. a long (ultra-long for + handicaps) heroic tee shot to the green, or a safe, short bailout that leaves you a wedge or so to try and save par.

Closing my eyes thinking of CPC right now.  If the site can accommodate that would be great.  You could use a large bunker to act as the water if need be, or even like PGA West Stadium 17 with huge boulders surrounding the green.

[Tom_Doak]

A knock-off on #16 at CPC, i.e. a long (ultra-long for + handicaps) heroic tee shot to the green, or a safe, short bailout that leaves you a wedge or so to try and save par.

The sixth hole on the Stadium Course at PGA WEST is essentially that, because I drew it in there when working on the plans for Mr Dye. I have rarely heard anyone notice the similarities or praise the hole, so I'd say it is not the best candidate for a template.

[Ari Techner]

A knock-off on #16 at CPC, i.e. a long (ultra-long for + handicaps) heroic tee shot to the green, or a safe, short bailout that leaves you a wedge or so to try and save par.

The sixth hole on the Stadium Course at PGA WEST is essentially that, because I drew it in there when working on the plans for Mr Dye. I have rarely heard anyone notice the similarities or praise the hole, so I'd say it is not the best candidate for a template.

Somehow people just don't get as excited about a pond as they do about the ocean.

[Jim Nugent]

A knock-off on #16 at CPC, i.e. a long (ultra-long for + handicaps) heroic tee shot to the green, or a safe, short bailout that leaves you a wedge or so to try and save par.

Certainly a solid hole, but does that not require some unique land formation, such as a quarry, or an ocean?

It needs a hazard, a big one, that penalizes anyone who doesn't pull off the heroic shot. 

But Tom Doak's observation may be the death knell. 

[Kalen Braley]

The par 3 18th at Delta View (which appears to be closing) is very similar to CPC 16:  It plays ~220 yards, with water short and right, a tough target to hit, OB if you go long left, etc....but an easy layup if you chose the wedge approach option.


Years ago, a couple of us NorCal guys got into it with Pat Mucci who thought it was a terrible hole despite the many similarities! 

[Rich Goodale]

Fuggedaboot them.  So early 20th century.   I can't see any 21st century stuff that interests me, including Old McDonald.


Rich

[Ira Fishman]

The 14th at Bandon Trails.


Ira

[Garland Bayley]

Would 6 and 16 at Pacific Dunes be unique enough to qualify as new templates?

How about 16 at Bandon Dunes?

17th at Juniper?

Or, perhaps the 7th at Bighorn Cliffs which only requires a glacial esker for a landform.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38984.msg814740.html#msg814740

[Ryan Taylor]

How about #7 at Streamsong Red??

Elements of strategic and penal design, quirk, width, notable characteristic, etc. 

Template name? Butte

[Garland Bayley]

I haven't had a lot of time to spend on this the last couple of days, but here's my first team:

Par 3's:
short:  16th Royal Melbourne (East)
medium:  11th St. Andrews
m-long:  4th National Golf Links
long:  3rd Rolling Rock

Par 4's:
short:  10th Riviera
     12th St. Andrews
     7th High Pointe
medium:  16th St. Andrews
     5th San Francisco Golf Club
     6th Royal Melbourne (West)
long:  10th Highlands CC (N.C.)
     18th Phila. Cricket Club
     13th Pine Valley
     2nd Lost Dunes

Par 5's:
short:  9th Royal North Devon
     8th Royal West Norfolk
medium:  16th Shinnecock Hills
long:  10th Pinehurst No. 2

There are a lot of holes mentioned above which I would like to include, but I don't think it's very feasible to think you could place them on a nondescript site.  The 8th at Crystal Downs is fantastic, but where are you going to find another piece of land like THAT?