Sheep Ranch and the future use of 5-mile Point

[Sven Nilsen]

Jeff -


JC is going to lawyer you by pointing out he was talking about solo work (thus Barnbougle not making his list).


But you don't need to take him seriously. 


Sven

[Ari Techner]

Well that was actually Hilton Head-not Myrtle, Palmetto Hall...


I thought  Old Mac was incredible and a perfect compliment to the other courses on the property.
What was disappointing?


I certainly would like the Sheep Ranch to stay in its current form.


and JC-Tom Doak hasn't produced any top courses since 2001?
seriously?


I would say Doak, Urbina, Hanse, C&C and no doubt others should All be considered.

Ah yes your right it was Hilton Head not Myrtle Beach.  That was quite a few years and many rounds ago but I do remember it well.

As far as Old Mac, I love Macdonald/Raynor courses.  I've spent considerable time traveling around and playing just about all of their relevant courses in the states.  I also lived in Oregon for almost 10 years and Bandon Dunes resort played a very large part in my life and development as a golfer.  I instantly fell in love with links golf the first time I played Pacific Dunes.  I also owned a house down there and used to walk my dogs on the property that became Old Mac.  When I heard they were building a Macdonald/Raynor style course at the resort on that land I could not have been more excited.  I thought this had the potential to be my favorite golf course in the world.  Walking off the course after my first play I felt such a huge sense of disappointment.  IMO it's a big miss. It does have a few great holes but most of the templates just do not do justice to the concepts they are supposed to represent.  Simply put this is not a course that CB Macdonald would have built.  The greens are far too extreme in far too many places.  Both internally in many spots as well as coming into them.  This is exasperated by the fact that it's at a resort with public play.  There is far too much of a de-emphasis on driving accuracy.  I've played out there a couple times with a really long and wild friend who was hitting it long and wild and never had any trouble finding his ball and getting to where he wanted to go.  The site and concept had so much potential and I pine for what could have been.

[JC Jones]

JC,
Off the top of my head

Tara Iti #6 in the world Golf Digest?
Rock Creek Cattle-#21 Golfweek Modern
Sebonack-DESPITE Nicklaus Top 100 Top 35 at some point
Cape Kidnappers-Top 100 World-Top 20 a some point

Digest Top 100 US.


Sebonack not a solo design.


Tara Iti and Cape Kidnappers: Not US and Ocean


I'm not saying he hasn't designed good courses, he has.

[JC Jones]

Jeff -


JC is going to lawyer you by pointing out he was talking about solo work (thus Barnbougle not making his list).


But you don't need to take him seriously. 


Sven

One man's lawyering is another man's sticking with what was actually said vs what was inferred....


Don't mistake my use of BCowan quotes in my signature of endorsement.  It's my way of memorializing two of the most ridiculous statements on this board that I have seen.

[jeffwarne]

Ari,
Interesting...
I didn't go in thinking of templates.


I really enjoyed it(My favorite course on the property despite being paired with a rank beginner and a worse caddie for her)-it may have had to do with no expectations and thinking of it in relation to the other courses on the property.


Obviously your knowledge of the property and expectations colored how you look at it-for better or for worse.

[JC Jones]

I do think part of appreciating Old Mac is suspending the expectations of the templates.  That being said, nothing can save the short....

[Ari Techner]

Obviously your knowledge of the property and expectations colored how you look at it-for better or for worse.

This is without question the case.


I have spent a good amount of time trying to analyze the course on its merits, taking my expectations out of it and I struggle to come to any different conclusion.  Obviously it's very hard for anyone to get over a bias or initial strong feeling but to me it misses the mark mostly around the greens.  I think many of them are far too severe internally and others far too severe in terms of being able to hit a shot that stays on them, especially for a resort course.  They definitely turned it up to 11 when maybe leaving it at 10 would have been better.  Again this course is made for me on paper but every time I play it I leave disappointed. 

[Sven Nilsen]

I do think part of appreciating Old Mac is suspending the expectations of the templates.  That being said, nothing can save the short....

 Sure you meant the Short?  Its normally the Redan that gets the criticism.  The Short is awesome, especially from the back tees.


The Biarritz is not a Biarritz, but that is another story.



I probably have a factor of 100x more experience on Old Mac than everyone here but Joe Bentham.  Obviously everything is subjective, but I find more first timers having a blast out there than otherwise. 


If I have any knock on the course, it has to do with setup as opposed to design, with not enough attention paid to moving the markers for the days wind.  This doesn't have anything to do with eliminating the halfpar nature of some of the holes, its more about preserving the risk reward nature of some of the options off of the tee.


And contrary to what Ari said earlier, there are preferred angles to different pins on each hole.  It may be a wide open playing field, but finding the right spots in that field is important.


Sven

[JC Jones]

That's an interesting take.  Maybe next time I need to have you on the bag to help me navigate the course.

[Ira Fishman]

Sven was on the bag for us, a choice I highly recommend. I thought Eden was the best of the Par 3 templates with Short a close second. As for the course as a whole, one play makes it tough to do a good assessment, but the green complexes were great fun because of the contours which made for several options when pitching or chipping. It certainly is not as faithful to the templates as some of the original ones I have played, but I think the intent was to do a modern take, not a replication, and for the most part it succeeds beautifully, especially the Par 4s. Bandon Trails was my favorite, but Old Mac was the most fun (other than Preserve of course).


Ira

[Ari Techner]

I don't want to turn this into an Old Mac thread so I'll try to refrain from commenting further than this.


I completely understand having fun on Old Mac and enjoying it.  To me any links golf like that is fun and enjoyable.  That doesn't make it a great course.  I've spent the last 10+ years of my life seeking out and traveling to play links golf, mostly in the UK and while I'd take a round at Old Mac over most parkland courses due to personal preference and love of firm turf, I put it near the bottom of the list of those types of courses I've played worldwide. 

[Blake Conant]

what the hell is happening in here?

[Ryan Farrow]

what the hell is happening in here?

This place is magical!  All I know is that I need to work on some more Golf Digest Top 100's to be taken seriously.

[JC Jones]

what the hell is happening in here?

This place is magical!  All I know is that I need to work on some more Golf Digest Top 100's to be taken seriously.

I think you probably just finished working on one and based on the pictures of some of your work, I think you should be taken seriously.


Your interpretation above is a misinterpretation.

[William_G]

I do think part of appreciating Old Mac is suspending the expectations of the templates.  That being said, nothing can save the short....

 Sure you meant the Short?  Its normally the Redan that gets the criticism.  The Short is awesome, especially from the back tees.


The Biarritz is not a Biarritz, but that is another story.



I probably have a factor of 100x more experience on Old Mac than everyone here but Joe Bentham.  Obviously everything is subjective, but I find more first timers having a blast out there than otherwise. 


If I have any knock on the course, it has to do with setup as opposed to design, with not enough attention paid to moving the markers for the days wind.  This doesn't have anything to do with eliminating the halfpar nature of some of the holes, its more about preserving the risk reward nature of some of the options off of the tee.


And contrary to what Ari said earlier, there are preferred angles to different pins on each hole.  It may be a wide open playing field, but finding the right spots in that field is important.


Sven

Hey Sven

Old Mac is a second shot golf course if there ever was one

[William_G]

Had the North wind  @ Bandon today and yesterday....so how does that impact the routing at Sheep Ranch???

beautiful days

life is good

[Garland Bayley]

JC,
Off the top of my head

Tara Iti #6 in the world Golf Digest?
Rock Creek Cattle-#21 Golfweek Modern
Sebonack-DESPITE Nicklaus Top 100 Top 35 at some point
Cape Kidnappers-Top 100 World-Top 20 a some point

Digest Top 100 US.


Sebonack not a solo design.


Tara Iti and Cape Kidnappers: Not US and Ocean


I'm not saying he hasn't designed good courses, he has.

Barnbougle Dunes!

And who gives a rat's ... about Golf Digest homeboy!

[Connor Dougherty]

Back to the original topic for a moment here (my opinions of Old MacDonald have been skewered enough on this board), I would prefer the alps hole from the south for one reason alone:


There are many cliffside par 3's which mimic the play from the North, one of which happens to be at Cabot Cliffs.


How many alps holes have you seen where hugging a cliffside would give you an open look at the green? I can only think of one hole with the same concept, and that's the 17th at Cypress, but even there the green can be seen through the trees.

[Jim Nugent]

JC Jones' signature includes "I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously."

If that means what I think it means, what a hilarious example of unintentional self-parody. 

[Kalen Braley]

JC Jones' signature includes "I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously."

If that means what I think it means, what a hilarious example of unintentional self-parody.

Amen jim,


And I don't get his comments at Doak either....with his body of work he doesn't have anything to prove to anyone, much less be subject to those kind of cheap shots..

[William_G]

Sven,

+1 on the Short being awesome from the back tee at about 155...it's a bummer that 95% of the golfers play it from the lower green tee without elevation...I've hiked as many buddies as I can up there for their enjoyment

[William_G]

Hey Connor,   

I like the Alps from the south as well as it brings in multiple playing options off the tee

along the cliff/coast is a risk, but gives you the best angle to the far left hole

cheers

[JC Jones]

JC Jones' signature includes "I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously."

If that means what I think it means, what a hilarious example of unintentional self-parody.

I would love to go through life as angry and as uninformed as you.

[JC Jones]

JC Jones' signature includes "I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously."

If that means what I think it means, what a hilarious example of unintentional self-parody.

Amen jim,


And I don't get his comments at Doak either....with his body of work he doesn't have anything to prove to anyone, much less be subject to those kind of cheap shots..

Reading is hard.

[Garland Bayley]

JC Jones' signature includes "I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously."

If that means what I think it means, what a hilarious example of unintentional self-parody.

Amen jim,


And I don't get his comments at Doak either....with his body of work he doesn't have anything to prove to anyone, much less be subject to those kind of cheap shots..

Reading is hard.

Apparently writing is hard for you too Jason. Your statement does not actually qualify your top 100 to the Golf Digest top 100. It does indicate that you think Ballyneal wasn't deserving of getting into the Golf Digest top 100, but it does not restrict all other courses to the Golf Digest top 100.

Let's be honest, Doak and Kidd should not be considered.  Neither of them have produced a solo design in the top 100 since Bandon (everyone knows how Ballyneal has manipulated the Golf Digest voting).
...

JC,
Off the top of my head

Tara Iti #6 in the world Golf Digest?
Rock Creek Cattle-#21 Golfweek Modern
Sebonack-DESPITE Nicklaus Top 100 Top 35 at some point
Cape Kidnappers-Top 100 World-Top 20 a some point

Digest Top 100 US.


Sebonack not a solo design.


Tara Iti and Cape Kidnappers: Not US and Ocean


I'm not saying he hasn't designed good courses, he has.