Congrats Tom Doak: new Consulting Architect at New South Wales GC

[Scott Warren]

Looking forward to seeing a lot of unmet potential realised in the next few years.


First things first, the local council needs the green on the iconic sixth hole moved left (toward the cliff) away from the public right-of-way — certainly an exciting hole to start on and maybe more than any other hole in the course is an example of a hole that falls short of its land and setting.

[Jeff Schley]

is this New South Wales I assume?  Sorry I'm American and after trying to rack my brain of fitting it into the USA went down under.

[Mark Chaplin]

Jeff the rest of the world spends its time wondering if there is a golfing world outside the USA and Tiger. Another thread talks about a course referred to as Black not a scouby which course they are referring to.


The 6th at NSW must be the world’s poorest hole v quality of site.

[Scott Warren]

Fair point, Jeff. Have amended thread title.

[Mike Sweeney]

First things first, the local council needs the green on the iconic sixth hole moved left (toward the cliff) away from the public right-of-way — certainly an exciting hole to start on and maybe more than any other hole in the course is an example of a hole that falls short of its land and setting.

Scott,

From the very far, this has always been iconic to me, but it is #5 correct?



Can you post a pic of what you are talking about for #6 ?


UPDATED:

[Scott Warren]

Mike,


The path visible in this picture is part of a lengthy, and increasingly busy, public coastal walk:


https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRbhQ3zYlXRGQRUI28M1hjT-JVeEC-w4js7PCgnZnOgZ74n2S1Dga8qOPMCKw


Randwick City Council wants the green further from the path for safety reasons, and so it has to go closer to the cliff.

[John Mayhugh]

I better hustle back over there to see the course one last time before all of Greg Norman's brilliant work is lost.






Congrats Tom (and Scott).

[Greg Gilson]

Congratulations to Tom & Renaissance!


One of the world's unique courses and one of my big time personal favourites. I am sure Tom & his team will work with a gentle hand and make this jewel shine even brighter.

[Anthony Butler]

Jeff the rest of the world spends its time wondering if there is a golfing world outside the USA and Tiger. Another thread talks about a course referred to as Black not a scouby which course they are referring to.


The 6th at NSW must be the world’s poorest hole v quality of site.

This notion of making it a death or glory cliffside shot would ruin the hole since it would take away the option of missing the green on the ocean side, which offers a much more manageable recovery shot than missing it to the right.

So increase the optics and take away the strategy.. and you'll be happy?

[Alan Ritchie]

The hole does lack something given the site, as an armchair architect I would love to see a Redan type green in there..
or even a Biarritz!

[Scott Warren]

Anthony,


Were Tom Doak likely to simply recreate the current green complex on the edge of the cliff you might have a good point, but I suspect he will design a new green complex that takes into account the fact that you can no longer miss left.

[corey miller]

Are there that many people walking the course that it would not be feasible for the golfers on #6 to simply wait?


Seems on an 18 hole course the par 3 holes would be the least problematic for safety?

[Matthew Mollica]

Congratulations Tom and your team. A great appointment, and an exciting time for NSWGC. Really looking forward to seeing the course improve in the coming years.

[Anthony Butler]

Anthony,

Were Tom Doak likely to simply recreate the current green complex on the edge of the cliff you might have a good point, but I suspect he will design a new green complex that takes into account the fact that you can no longer miss left.

That's true, Scott... if the Council and the other govt. entities involved are intent on making the club completely relocate the green it will be difficult, if not impossible, to preserve the current playing characteristics of the hole.

I always viewed that scenario as a false choice in terms of a safety issue... Admittedly I haven't been home in a few years, but I never experienced playing from the 6th tee as hitting into a bunch of non-golfing visitors streaming along the path - unaware and uncaring of the fact that ball traveling at 75mph might be about to take them out.

The vast majority of these folks stay back from the green area until your group has hit from the team... And since New South Wales is not in America, I've yet to hear a 'Get in the hole' or a "Bababooey" from any of them.

I

[Tom_Doak]

Thanks to all for the good wishes.


Beyond that, I can't really say much because I'm not yet sure what our mission is.  It's obviously not as straightforward as The Valley Club where we restored MacKenzie's design ... some of NSW's most celebrated holes (including the 6th) are the work of Eric Apperly.  So our first step is to help sort out what the mission should be.


I do agree with Anthony that the 6th gets a bit of a bum rap.  If not for the council project I don't know if I would have proposed changing it, and I've already told the club that we can't move the green over as far as the drawing I saw.  What few seem to grasp is that the more the green moves left, the more of a forced carry you have, and the less room you have to stop the shot before it's into the big slope behind the green.  Combining that with a super-windy setting makes for a difficult balancing act.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,


From what you know so far, how much bunker restoration or re-do is in the works?  From the pictures I've seen, looks like that site would really benefit from some well placed MacK style bunkers to both intimidate and provide risk reward...

[SL_Solow]

Reading Tom's post I am reminded why most of us are amateurs and how many practical problems the professionals see which temper their ability to be creative.  All the more reason to appreciate the creativity that so many of them manage to get into the ground while working their way through these "details".

[Anthony Butler]

I do agree with Anthony that the 6th gets a bit of a bum rap.  If not for the council project I don't know if I would have proposed changing it, and I've already told the club that we can't move the green over as far as the drawing I saw.  What few seem to grasp is that the more the green moves left, the more of a forced carry you have, and the less room you have to stop the shot before it's into the big slope behind the green.  Combining that with a super-windy setting makes for a difficult balancing act.

Tom... I agree with your thoughts and would add that my first reaction to the drawing you referenced is some people connected to the club were using the council project as an excuse to put their own design thoughts on the table so as to speak.

Obviously the amount of earth it would take to recreate the current green near the ocean edge would be both impractical and unlikely to gain approval from whoever controls that stretch of coastline. One thing that always stuck out to me playing the hole is how much better and more interesting the shot from the island tee is versus the one on land... which is just a straight shot up a slight rise with anything from an 8 iron to a 5 iron depending on the wind.

Since 90% of the play is from that tee, I'm hoping that your work might address that situation.   

[Scott Warren]

90% of play is from which tee?


On comp days (Sat, Sun, Wed), men can choose to play Blue or White tees and I’d estimate it’s at least 80/20 Blues/Whites, plus the corporates on a Tuesday always play the island tee.


Obviously all Red tee play is from the “mainland” tee, but in terms of the men, very few elect to play from there.


But given the green complex was designed in the 40s for the mainland tee and the island tee was then added in the 70s - 40m left and 30m back, it’s not surprising that there’s a major difference in how it plays.

[Anthony Butler]

90% of play is from which tee?


On comp days (Sat, Sun, Wed), men can choose to play Blue or White tees and I’d estimate it’s at least 80/20 Blues/Whites, plus the corporates on a Tuesday always play the island tee.


Obviously all Red tee play is from the “mainland” tee, but in terms of the men, very few elect to play from there.


But given the green complex was designed in the 40s for the mainland tee and the island tee was then added in the 70s - 40m left and 30m back, it’s not surprising that there’s a major difference in how it plays.

Scott - I'm going to say the truth lies somewhere between your 80% and my 90%. Let's say women represent 20% of total rounds and about 40% of the men use the white tees for various reasons.. That's about 50/50 overall split.
Ironically, apart from the obvious aesthetic benefits, the green also plays a lot better from the island tee than the mainland, despite the fact it was initially designed to be played from the mainland.

I think you'll find prior to Greg Norman doing work on the course, there have been a few updates to the green since the island tee went into play. The only thing of significance I can remember happening since the 90s is some work on the two bunkers to the right of the green.. The only work I recall one the green itself was re-establishing the original size of the green.. if memory serves correctly the front section of the green particularly was a little smaller when I first started playing there with my grandfather in the 70s.