Silly that 16 at Bay Hill is a par 5.

[John Kavanaugh]

So you actually believe that if Tiger eagles 16 and takes the lead nothing changes? You are only adding to the myth that high handicappers not only smooth 7 irons 170yds, putt so well that pros ask aspiring young champions to emulate their methods and have balls of Tariff hardened Chinese steel. Me, I can feel momentum from the parking lot.

[Carl Rogers]

This thread and the hole itself just tells me that for the elite, a new game needs to be invented.

[John Kavanaugh]

This thread and the hole itself just tells me that for the elite, a new game needs to be invented.

What's wrong with the game we got? I just took my wife out for a round were she observed my play as our robot caddied. In the course of only nine holes I hit two shots as good as any elite player on any level will hit all year. Same ball, same equipment, same rules. She doesn't play golf and had trouble appreciating the quality of the strikes but she could not deny that I wasn't playing the same game she saw me fixated on this Sunday on TV. Now if I asked her to go outside and watch me dunk on our 8 foot goal she would rightly tell me to go piss myself.


One ball, one world.

[Carl Rogers]

This thread and the hole itself just tells me that for the elite, a new game needs to be invented.

What's wrong with the game we got? I just took my wife out for a round were she observed my play as our robot caddied. In the course of only nine holes I hit two shots as good as any elite player on any level will hit all year. Same ball, same equipment, same rules. She doesn't play golf and had trouble appreciating the quality of the strikes but she could not deny that I wasn't playing the same game she saw me fixated on this Sunday on TV. Now if I asked her to go outside and watch me dunk on our 8 foot goal she would rightly tell me to go piss myself.


One ball, one world.

I really do not like watching the typical tour event, but I watched Bay Hill because Tiger had a chance to win.  After his tee shot on 16, I turned the tube off. 
For the elite of the pro's, the game has become way too one dimensional.  I have advocated a big technological roll back .... ball, club head, shaft type, shaft length, reduce club number, etc

[James Brown]

This thread and the hole itself just tells me that for the elite, a new game needs to be invented.

What's wrong with the game we got? I just took my wife out for a round were she observed my play as our robot caddied. In the course of only nine holes I hit two shots as good as any elite player on any level will hit all year. Same ball, same equipment, same rules. She doesn't play golf and had trouble appreciating the quality of the strikes but she could not deny that I wasn't playing the same game she saw me fixated on this Sunday on TV. Now if I asked her to go outside and watch me dunk on our 8 foot goal she would rightly tell me to go piss myself.


One ball, one world.

I really do not like watching the typical tour event, but I watched Bay Hill because Tiger had a chance to win.  After his tee shot on 16, I turned the tube off. 
For the elite of the pro's, the game has become way too one dimensional.  I have advocated a big technological roll back .... ball, club head, shaft type, shaft length, reduce club number, etc

Did exactly the same thing.  Tiger OB.  Click.

[John Kavanaugh]

I sadly invested myself into the tournament but clicked over to the Syracuse - Mich St. game during a commercial. I came back to see Tiger hitting his fourth shot to the green. I missed the best shot of the day. Except for the last shot Mich St. missed that is.

[Pete_Pittock]

It is a par 5 for viewership. We keep score over TV relative to par, and seeing a hole where a player can pick up two shots in one hole makes it exciting.  For the players it is about picking up or defending their positions against the course,the field, the leaders and those within their own competitive sphere within the tournament.
Entertainment pure and simple.


Apologies as I have not read the rest of the responses.

[Matthew Rose]

I might be mistaken, but wasn't 16 played as a par 4 for a few years?

It was for the first 30 years it was open. Was originally designed that way. I don't believe it was ever a par-five until around 1990 or so. They've added 60 or 70 yards to it over time and that's why the tees now protrude into the lake.

At one time the 1st hole was a par five and the 4th was a par four. Arnie's made the thing over quite a few times. I think the nines might have even been flipped very early on in its history.

I also remember when the pond on #18 was bulkheaded instead of having the rocks.

[mike_malone]

How can such a great golfer like Palmer have such a subpar architectural sense?

[Jason Thurman]

I played the first 9 holes of the year tonight on the course up the street not too far from Five Guys - my wife has been trying a vegan gluten-free diet that's really wearing on me. The last hole of the day was a 454 yard par 5, and you could tell they hadn't moved the tees up for the winter or anything because my drive ended up right next to the 150 yard marker just like you'd expect.


My yoga teacher has been helping me forge a mind-body awareness and I tried to feel a low cut 7 iron. I pictured carving the ball softly back against the breeze and landing it softly on the green. I activated my moulabonda and hit a hooded chunk that caught the opposite edge of the green and bounced up against the collar of the rough.


And at this moment I was as close to achieving nirvana as I've probably ever been on a golf course. I took a putter because I remembered Jeff Warne posting that bellying a wedge is stupid when you belly the ball with a putter all the time. So I hit a putt and watched as it cruised down the hill and took the break, pinning between the flagstick and the hole for a few seconds before dropping for the first eagle of 2018 on the ninth hole of the year. Ok, fine, it was the 12th. I backtracked and replayed 3-5 when I saw the slow guys on 6 tee.


Anyways, you who would take all that away from me just to give Tiger a double bogey can go to hell.

[mike_malone]

I played the first 9 holes of the year tonight on the course up the street not too far from Five Guys - my wife has been trying a vegan gluten-free diet that's really wearing on me. The last hole of the day was a 454 yard par 5, and you could tell they hadn't moved the tees up for the winter or anything because my drive ended up right next to the 150 yard marker just like you'd expect.


My yoga teacher has been helping me forge a mind-body awareness and I tried to feel a low cut 7 iron. I pictured carving the ball softly back against the breeze and landing it softly on the green. I activated my moulabonda and hit a hooded chunk that caught the opposite edge of the green and bounced up against the collar of the rough.


And at this moment I was as close to achieving nirvana as I've probably ever been on a golf course. I took a putter because I remembered Jeff Warne posting that bellying a wedge is stupid when you belly the ball with a putter all the time. So I hit a putt and watched as it cruised down the hill and took the break, pinning between the flagstick and the hole for a few seconds before dropping for the first eagle of 2018 on the ninth hole of the year. Ok, fine, it was the 12th. I backtracked and replayed 3-5 when I saw the slow guys on 6 tee.


Anyways, you who would take all that away from me just to give Tiger a double bogey can go to hell.

Accept my apology.

[jeffwarne]

I played the first 9 holes of the year tonight on the course up the street not too far from Five Guys - my wife has been trying a vegan gluten-free diet that's really wearing on me. The last hole of the day was a 454 yard par 5, and you could tell they hadn't moved the tees up for the winter or anything because my drive ended up right next to the 150 yard marker just like you'd expect.


My yoga teacher has been helping me forge a mind-body awareness and I tried to feel a low cut 7 iron. I pictured carving the ball softly back against the breeze and landing it softly on the green. I activated my moulabonda and hit a hooded chunk that caught the opposite edge of the green and bounced up against the collar of the rough.


And at this moment I was as close to achieving nirvana as I've probably ever been on a golf course. I took a putter because I remembered Jeff Warne posting that bellying a wedge is stupid when you belly the ball with a putter all the time. So I hit a putt and watched as it cruised down the hill and took the break, pinning between the flagstick and the hole for a few seconds before dropping for the first eagle of 2018 on the ninth hole of the year. Ok, fine, it was the 12th. I backtracked and replayed 3-5 when I saw the slow guys on 6 tee.


Anyways, you who would take all that away from me just to give Tiger a double bogey can go to hell.

you had me at bellied putter....the hooded chunck was just gravy...
glad to be of help.
Evidently more people read(1) than listen....

[John Kavanaugh]

Jason once again proves that we are the one sport where we hit shots as good as or better than the very best players in the game on a day to day basis. Watching the superior athlete hit a driver or even a wedge further than you is a small price to pay.


I told my wife last night that my buddies on this site want Tiger to hit a softer ball so he can't hit it so much better than them. She just shook her head and said "Don't they understand that every dog has his day?". I then ask if she wanted to go outside and watch me dunk on a 8 foot goal. She asked if I was insane.


I wonder if Jason went home with his burger breath and told his wife about his eagle...

[jeffwarne]

A 6th grader heaving and banking in an off the hip 3 pointer is very similar to the delusion of golfers "hitting a shot as good or better than the best players in the world"


I give-I will never mention Freddie's workout again...
if you will save me the visual of you and an 8 foot goal sprawled out in the road.

[John Kavanaugh]

A 6th grader heaving and banking in an off the hip 3 pointer is very similar to the delusion of golfers "hitting a shot as good or better than the best players in the world"


I give-I will never mention Freddie's workout again...
if you will save me the visual of you and an 8 foot goal sprawled out in the road.

Absolutely not. The sixth grader is not being defended by a NBA'er. I guarantee you that of the 80 or so golf shots I hit each time I play that I will hit at least one that you could give any pro in the world 5 balls and he could not either replicate or improve on. It's the only sport where that is true. If the game is bifurcated we lose the right to doze off at night in the solitary solace of our greatness. Even if it is only one shot.


Ok, maybe not 5 balls. The number of balls would be a wagerable proposition.

[jeffwarne]

A 6th grader heaving and banking in an off the hip 3 pointer is very similar to the delusion of golfers "hitting a shot as good or better than the best players in the world"


I give-I will never mention Freddie's workout again...
if you will save me the visual of you and an 8 foot goal sprawled out in the road.

Absolutely not. The sixth grader is not being defended by a NBA'er. I guarantee you that of the 80 or so golf shots I hit each time I play that I will hit at least one that you could give any pro in the world 5 balls and he could not either replicate or improve on. It's the only sport where that is true. If the game is bifurcated we lose the right to doze off at night in the solitary solace of our greatness. Even if it is only one shot.


Ok, maybe not 5 balls. The number of balls would be a wagerable proposition.

did you just use the word defense and NBA in the same sentence?
do you not think that "out of 80" possessions there is not a situation where a 6th grader could not get his off the hip slinger off?


Out of all the arguments against bifurcation (and there are several that will probably be deemed insurmountable) , the idea that an amateur "now plays the same game" is the most ridiculous.

starting with the option of 7 sets of tees....mulligans, gimmes, handicaps, no galleries, rules


.....and ending on Trackman with the guy who tells me he CARRIES 7 iron 160....and it's generally 115-130
It really cracks me up that he would somehow lose sleep (over his "game comparison") if a touring pro played a ball that only enabled the pro to carry his 7 iron 167 rather than 185.

[Kalen Braley]

John,


I think you're delusion is... if we're using the NBA analogy...


Is that you think playing a friendly 4 ball with your buddies is the same as playing in a top notch pro tourney with spectators, distractions, yahoo's coughing in your backswing and shouting "You Da man"... and pressure otherwise.


Cause unless your a proper sandbagger like Larry F, (who is also accustomed to performing under intense pressure), you'll be puking all over yourself...

[John Kavanaugh]

.....and ending on Trackman with the guy who tells me he CARRIES 7 iron 160....and it's generally 115-130
It really cracks me up that he would somehow lose sleep if a pro played a ball that only enabled the pro to carry his 7 iron 167 rather than 185.

Those guys are not serious golfers. I think the people who take the game seriously and have contributed so, some for 50 years, are the ones who deserve to be protected from bifurcation.


Kalen,


The only reason I ever hit a bad shot it is because of pressure. Based on the people who can't take their range game to the course I don't think I am alone. Some people play better under pressure, they are usually called pros.

[jeffwarne]

.....and ending on Trackman with the guy who tells me he CARRIES 7 iron 160....and it's generally 115-130
It really cracks me up that he would somehow lose sleep if a pro played a ball that only enabled the pro to carry his 7 iron 167 rather than 185.

Those guys are not serious golfers. I think the people who take the game seriously and have contributed so, some for 50 years, are the ones who deserve to be protected from bifurcation.

talk about a .01% group.....


it's been made quite clear that the number one reason we can't bifurcate or rollback because we "don't care about the .01%"
but now we're going to cater to the tiny, tiny group that isn't delusional about how far they hit it?

[John Kavanaugh]

Yes we are not going to change how far we hit it to protect those who know how far they hit it. I think it is a much larger group than you think. It is most likely the guys who pay the bills.

[John Kavanaugh]

Of the two high profile courses where I am a member I can promise you that 50% of the membership can tell you + or - 3yds exactly how far they carry each club. Let's stop this nonsense that the golfers who support the game day after day are a bunch of blithering idiots that can't hit a decent shot to save their name.


It may take a few holes to adjust to barometric pressure and temperature but a guy just knows these things. This story line that only .01% can hit a shot is just another attempt to make the casual golfer feel better about their game. Truth is, most casual golfers are not in the 99.99%. They are in the bottom 50%. But that just doesn't sound as pretty, does it?

[jeffwarne]

Of the two high profile courses where I am a member I can promise you that 50% of the membership can tell you + or - 3yds exactly how far they carry each club.

I'm confident that anyone who plays (successfully) in money games at VN is in the .01% and is correct about their carry distance.
which leaves 17000 other courses, and 24,999,750 other golfers, plus me.

[JMEvensky]

I think JK makes a reasonable argument--assuming I'm understanding it correctly.


Basically since inception, golf has tried to appeal to the highest common denominator of players. Sometime in the last 20(?) years, that pendulum has swung all the way to the other side. Keeping each group happy is an impossibility.

[Kalen Braley]

I think JK makes a reasonable argument--assuming I'm understanding it correctly.


Basically since inception, golf has tried to appeal to the highest common denominator of players. Sometime in the last 20(?) years, that pendulum has swung all the way to the other side. Keeping each group happy is an impossibility.

JM,


I agree with the 2nd part of that statement....all the more reason bifurcation is needed.


Which also directly conflicts with JKs One Ball, One World mantra....which isn't even true anyways.  There are already dozens of different balls on the market...

[Joe Hancock]

Obviously since we play the same game as the pros, then we should demand that every golf course is maintained to PGA Tour quality standards.....because otherwise, that would be bifurcation if the golfing masses had to play on anything less.