[Kalen Braley]

Jerry,


Here are some more detailed explanations from the USGA site.


http://www.usga.org/rules-hub/rules-modernization/text/stroke-and-distance-relief.html


P.S.  Thats from a year ago darn, looks like its just talking points, but still informative I suppose

[Kalen Braley]

This one appears to explain it.


https://www.golfdigest.com/story/usga-and-randa-officials-reveal-final-draft-of-modernized-rules-of-golf-to-debut-in-2019

[David_Elvins]

So if I understand this correctly, you hit a bad tee shot and it goes out of bounds so now you can hit your 4th shot where the ball went out or if you lose a ball you can add two strokes and play from the spot where you thought it should be but you now know it isn't.

I think you can hit it from the edge of the fairway near where you think it was lost.

[David_Elvins]

Is there any indication as to what is to stop a playing partner helpfully laying down the flagstick in a place behind the hole where it might be accidently struck?  We already have a problem eith playing partners leaving their balls in a spot where it may be struck.  Opening this tactic up to putting and flagsticks seems unwise on face value.

Yeah, that's not accidental. If it's intentional, it's a violation.

If we are playing together in a stroke event and you lie down the flag in a place where I may hit it if I miss the hole, I am under no obligation to move the flag stick or ask for it to be moved.  I can get a free hit at the putt and replay the shot if it hits the flag stick.  The only possible penalty would be against you if it was determined that you placed the flag there as a backstop for me on purpose and I have no idea how you would go about determining that. 


It is the stupidest rule ever, takes the onus away from the player to take responsibility for his actions and relies on some magical determination of intent. 

[Adam Clayman]

David, This whole movement to appease the lazy participant that cries "unfair", is just a reflection on society's loss of the concept of Onus of responsibility. It smacks of desperate dollar driven influences, that don't respect the one that brung'em.

[jeffwarne]

So if I understand this correctly, you hit a bad tee shot and it goes out of bounds so now you can hit your 4th shot where the ball went out or if you lose a ball you can add two strokes and play from the spot where you thought it should be but you now know it isn't.

First of all, the primary reason people lose balls, especially in rough, is they do not START looking until they are long PAST where their ball actually is....(usually because they assume it's in the vicinity of other people's drives-- which may have rolled out nicely because they didn't snag in the rough)
so you can almost always assume they will be dropping 20-50 yards ahead of where their ball actually was lost....


Secondly, if I do actually look where my awful drive went....why would I want to drop there with 2 strokes, when I could retee and drive to a much better position=laying the same.
Again, a player generally will have incentive to hit a provisional-which tales some time-and he has equal incentive to look for his original-which tales some time.


and since he can't use the rule IF he plays a provisional-he has a decision to make which certainly calls for a several minute caddie conference


and since when did we need the USGA's permission to INVOKE a local rule?
That's why it's called a local rule....


doddering old fools and pandora's box..


Ironically, those of us who knew the rules, no longer do...(since the DJ rule no one knows exactly what to do if a ball moves on the green and therefore calls an official)
and those who didn't before(you know the ones we're now pandering to)-certainly aren't going to bother learning them-hence the pandering.


at least they did get the caddy lineup thing right.....


love the knee height decision-do these guys have real jobs?

[John Kavanaugh]

These changes will only make the fast players play even faster. I wouldn't bet against the slow players being even slower. The only sure thing...Everyone will be more miserable.


Every time a slow player puts his hand on his ball the game slows down. It's quicker to hit a provisional than to argue about where to take a drop.

[Tom_Doak]

So if I understand this correctly, you hit a bad tee shot and it goes out of bounds so now you can hit your 4th shot where the ball went out or if you lose a ball you can add two strokes and play from the spot where you thought it should be but you now know it isn't.

My guess is the USGA only thinks about this from a handicapping perspective.  If you lose a ball or hit one o.b., and drop and play four, you are most likely going to make a net double bogey, which is where their scoring stops.  They just don't care about how it might affect a match between two higher handicappers; they can't relate.

[John Kavanaugh]

No ones handicap is going to go down because of ESC, but the 18 handicap is going to make fewer X's. This is going to leave more poor golfers not being asked to join in gambling games. It may take a while but guys giving strokes are going to get sick of watching guys taking drops were the rarely hit the ball. By a while I mean until they can find someone else to play with. Bye, bye!!!

[Steve Wilson]

To my knowledge I've never performed a double hit nor have I managed to hit myself with my own ball, but now that there's no penalty for these actions I intend to take full advantage of them!!!!

[Erik J. Barzeski]

So if I understand this correctly, you hit a bad tee shot and it goes out of bounds so now you can hit your 4th shot where the ball went out or if you lose a ball you can add two strokes and play from the spot where you thought it should be but you now know it isn't.

Pretty much, but add the idea that there's an "area" and you can even drop anywhere in that area, which goes over to the fairway, too.

[Kyle Harris]

I know we are eliminating "Through the green" from the definitions, but doesn't the new Local Rule now necessitate a specific definition for "Fairway?"

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I know we are eliminating "Through the green" from the definitions, but doesn't the new Local Rule now necessitate a specific definition for "Fairway?"

Yes, and oddly, they don't define it in the released 2019 Rules. It's noted as a part of the "General Area" in 2.2 "Defined Areas of the Course" and in two other places: in 16.3 about the embedded ball, and in the definition of Advice regarding the "location" of the stated items.

Kind of odd that it's used three times but not defined. I mean, even "the hole" is defined, as is "animal" and other basic words that "everyone understands." It isn't defined in the current rules, either, despite the embedded ball rule using it.

[John Kavanaugh]

So now 18 handicaps will shoot 4 to 8 strokes lower per round without lowering their handicaps. This truly creates another class of player.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

So now 18 handicaps will shoot 4 to 8 strokes lower per round without lowering their handicaps. This truly creates another class of player.

How do you figure? It's a two-stroke penalty, they'll be hitting four, and a lot of those golfers are probably already just dropping up there and taking their ESC already (or adding only one penalty stroke).

Plus you honestly think that those 18 handicappers are losing 4 to 8 balls per round?

[Kevin Neary]

So now 18 handicaps will shoot 4 to 8 strokes lower per round without lowering their handicaps. This truly creates another class of player.

Pardon my ignorance, but I do not understand how this works. While I'm not really a fan of the rule, as I think it is far easier to hit a provisional tee ball, how can someone shoot eight shots less than normal, and retain their handicap?

[John Kavanaugh]

Currently with ESC an 18 handicap can post a maximum 7 on any hole. Given this rule they will still make at least the same 7 but fewer X's. Besides not hitting a second ball out of bounds they have eliminated all other poorly hit provisional shots. This sadly will also decrease the quickness of having an 18 handicap with his "ball in pocket" after hitting his provisional OB or lost. At any uber difficult course this happens at least three times per round. Thus the 4 to 8 strokes.

[Kalen Braley]

John will forever be the resident troll.


As a 18 capper myself, I can count the times on one hand I lost that many balls in one round, and 3 of em came on one particular difficult course the Idaho Club


P.S. 18 cappers have fewer Xs than you think.  Our difficulty in general is not with posting massive scores, its making loads of single bogeys instead of pars that makes up 18 cappers.  I may have one X per round....

[John Kavanaugh]

Kalen,


I am referring to uber difficult courses like Victoria National. The over/under for any double digit handicap is 6 balls. Most 18's stop counting.


The funny thing about this rule is that every 18 that I play with hits the ball further than me. They are going to be taking drops in the fairway 20 yds in front of my drive. How am I supposed to be giving them strokes and retain my sanity?

[Edward Glidewell]

As a 18 capper myself, I can count the times on one hand I lost that many balls in one round, and 3 of em came on one particular difficult course the Idaho Club


P.S. 18 cappers have fewer Xs than you think.  Our difficulty in general is not with posting massive scores, its making loads of single bogeys instead of pars that makes up 18 cappers.  I may have one X per round....

I'm a 15 at the moment and this is exactly it. I have no distance problem, nor do I make a lot of triples. I just make tons and tons of bogeys and some doubles. Every once in a while I'll make more pars than usual and end up shooting in the mid-high 80s, but then I'll also have rounds where I make more doubles than normal and am in the high 90s.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,


I am referring to uber difficult courses like Victoria National. The over/under for any double digit handicap is 6 balls. Most 18's stop counting.


The funny thing about this rule is that every 18 that I play with hits the ball further than me. They are going to be taking drops in the fairway 20 yds in front of my drive. How am I supposed to be giving them strokes and retain my sanity?

John


Fair enough.  At Vic National, I will stipulate I would probably lose 5 balls or more.  From what I've seen in pics and aerials, it looks to be very demanding for a player like me.


But this is why if you make broad sweeping generalizations based on how high cappers would do on one specific course, you might look a little silly.   

[John Kavanaugh]

This rule is a direct assault against the short straight hitter. It does nothing but promote bombing away at every drive setting us up for the bifurcation I have been telling you is coming all along. The pros stay exactly where they are at while we get even better longer hitting equipment and balls. When everyone starts hitting it 340 off the tee and taking drops inside 100 yds when one goes off line it's going to be fun, fun, fun. How do you not see this coming?

[Kyle Harris]

We've lost the art of looking for where your ball likely is as opposed to where you'd like it to be.

[Kalen Braley]

John,


I don't know about you, but on a 390 yard par 4, I'd much rather be:


lying 1 facing a 190 yard approach after a short drive,


Over


Lying 3 with a 140 yard approach after trying to nuke one..

[John Kavanaugh]

And I'd rather have all my paycheck instead of gambling and drinking it away. You can't fight human nature.


btw: You wouldn't be a high handicap if you were that good at course management.

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