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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0

Sean,

Perhaps that would be because GD and others have lists and criteria for the 100 Greatest Courses, but none for the 100 most exceptional courses.  And, each lists criteria has a guidebook for getting to "great."

I can't place it right now, but I suspect at most, there have been a few 10 or so course lists for exceptional or unique courses, not the full 100.  In fact, if there were 100 that fit the criteria, they might not be all that exceptional anyway. The dirty dozen would be a better list for that.

Jeff

For sure there is criteria for determining what is great.  I admit that it is very hard not see courses as I would want them instead of what is actually in the ground, but I do try.  I also try to see courses from the perspective of what the archie was trying to achieve...this can be harder still to figure out.  The more I ignore criteria the easier it is to forget about greatness and simply enjoy what is.  That doesn't mean I don't cast a critical eye over the product, but it helps shape what I want to get from a game of golf.  Not surpisingly, what I really like most is surprises, unusual architectural choices and simple ground features which "direct" play in the sense of there being a good lane and a lane which is not good, but still tempting.  The joy of the game is not in seeking great design, but design which makes me laugh, think and cuss. Greatness is over-rated and somewhat like chasing unicorns.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0

Tim,

I agree with your comments about understanding where to start. Picasso was taught by his father who was an artist. Many architects work under others for decades before attempting their own solo work. But the problem is rules and principals will only produce a good or perhaps great result.


Exceptional requires the artist to take flight and begin to use their intuition rather than some form of a process. And herein lies the rub at what I'm trying to get at. The design process uses both the intuitive side of your brain and the the logical side. It bounces back and forth between the two states depending on the task is. Design is not a single side of the brain operation for a creative person.

You may choose to use the logical side and your list on concepts and ideas to begin the process. I personally don't. But the flashes of inspiration are where the flight into something intuitive and more eccentric happens. The greater the designer's ability to "play" in that space, the greater chance of expanding their ideas beyond conventional. Exceptional lies "way out there."  Not everyone can go there because deep down inside "you have to believe in something or be looking for something" to have any possibility of extending out beyond where you're comfortable. Then you have to have the conviction to see it through...

« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 07:36:30 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0


Ian,


You probably saw my earlier comment about
Disney design guru Bob Gurr.  Highlight of his Google interview is someone asking about design process, and he shuts the idea down as process being counterproductive to creativity.  I agree with you there is a lot of bounce back between logic and creative.  I can't say I ever had my most innovative ideas come in the middle of some process.
They just sort of appear, unannounced, although I will say, after reflection, most of the time I can see where it came from.  Creativity is usually the result of recalling a feature somewhere, and another problem from somewhere else, and sort of realizing that feature X could work to solve problem Y in some manner, after customization. 
To be honest, I don't think you can think in terms of "way out there."  You just have to keep free thinking until something that is great comes to you.  Maybe its brainstorming, but not quite.
Crenshaw likened design creativity to songs and music.  I relate it to comedy, where the key is substitution of a new, completely different idea when everyone else would insert the tried and true.  Think of the best jokes from say, Steve Martin:
-I sort of blame myself for my girlfriends death.....
-She wanted to drive home while drunk, I didn't want her to, we argued, she insisted on driving.......so I shot her.
Classic substitution, the key to creativity, IMHO.
May we now ask what you consider to be your most exceptional individual design feature?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 08:53:55 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Some of the more memorable holes I've built which fall into the "flash of inspiration" category (where I wasn't sure at first how they would turn out, but then made a key decision later) include a lot of my best holes


High Pointe 13
Stonewall Old 18
Ballyneal 7
Barnbougle 4
Pacific Dunes 8
Old Mac 7 & 8


These are not all "original" ideas - for example the 7th at Ballyneal is loosely based on the 7th at Crystal Downs.  But it wasn't planned that way; I had to stare at the green site for several days before I realized that would be the perfect solution for it.


Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Great initial post, Ian, and some great responses from some of the greatest contributors to this site.  I'm a bad boy to not have seen these until today.


As far as I can see, nobody on this site (including me) can adequately define "great" or explain the differences between good, great and exceptional, or whatever.  As Ian said, it's a Justice Potter thing (i.e. I know it when I see it) and we all see things very differently.


Vive la difference!
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0

Tim,

I agree with your comments about understanding where to start. Picasso was taught by his father who was an artist. Many architects work under others for decades before attempting their own solo work. But the problem is rules and principals will only produce a good or perhaps great result.


Exceptional requires the artist to take flight and begin to use their intuition rather than some form of a process. And herein lies the rub at what I'm trying to get at. The design process uses both the intuitive side of your brain and the the logical side. It bounces back and forth between the two states depending on the task is. Design is not a single side of the brain operation for a creative person.

You may choose to use the logical side and your list on concepts and ideas to begin the process. I personally don't. But the flashes of inspiration are where the flight into something intuitive and more eccentric happens. The greater the designer's ability to "play" in that space, the greater chance of expanding their ideas beyond conventional. Exceptional lies "way out there."  Not everyone can go there because deep down inside "you have to believe in something or be looking for something" to have any possibility of extending out beyond where you're comfortable. Then you have to have the conviction to see it through...



Ian,


Great write-up and I 100% agree with this.


Only thing to add, and I almost put this into my initial post: I was in a conference where one of the speakers said that roughly only 1 in 10 are capable of having an original thought to a problem. Even if you take that with a grain of salt, I do think that what separates the masters from the amateurs is HOW they play in that more intuitive and eccentric space that you talk about. Tom's post illustrates this nicely - it's not that the 7th at Ballyneal was a truly original hole, but that how he approached the space was largely thanks to inspirational thinking that takes it from the analytical to the intuitive. What it SHOULD be vs. what it COULD be!

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ian et al,


As a non-architect, non-artist, non-visually creative person, I greatly admire and respect those who have both the vision of something exceptional and the guts to pursue it knowing that he or she risks ridicule.  Of all the "art" forms, I find golf architecture the most intriguing and probably most difficult because it must perform/enable a specific function within a precisely defined set of rules as established by the R&A and USGA.  So while a building architect must enable a function, they are not also working within set rules.  Wright could do the Guggenheim (which I love) and Gehry the Bilboa (which I do not); both enable the function of viewing art, but they were not constrained by rules defining how to keep score or how far balls could go.


Ira

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
We work with the same rules as regular architects ... gravity being the most important of the bunch. 


Gravity makes building architecture way more complicated than golf architecture IMO.


You mentioned the "vision" thing, which for me anyway, is half myth.  It took me so long to have those flashes of inspiration because it's hard to visualize a finished design from scratch ... a lot of times you have to get started on something before it gels.  As most novelists will tell you, they don't have the whole plot sorted before they write; they develop the characters and then see what happens.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tom,


Whenever in the process the vision comes, it comes.  And if and when it comes, the challenge is to pursue one that pushes the conventional. 


Re rules, yes gravity is a ineluctable force that affects both kinds of architects, but building architects do not have to accommodate the rules of a sport.  It gives them more freedom.


Ira

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Jeff_Brauer said, "I relate it to comedy, where the key is substitution of a new, completely different idea when everyone else would insert the tried and true."

IMHO Substitution will not get the job done...

Exceptional comes from removing yourself from the comfort of a framework you trust.

« Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 01:43:00 PM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Speaking of TR....


And this is just a total shot in the dark, but how interesting and/or feasible would it be to have a top notch pro tourney there?  Would the confines allow for spectating, or too impractical?  Perhaps a smaller event like a Walker Cup where galleries are small?


Just wondering....


It's only 6,500 yards. They'd just blast it straight over all the quirk

If it stops at e.g. 280 from the tee, then is it quirk?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Some of the more memorable holes I've built which fall into the "flash of inspiration" category (where I wasn't sure at first how they would turn out, but then made a key decision later) include a lot of my best holes


High Pointe 13
Stonewall Old 18
Ballyneal 7
Barnbougle 4
Pacific Dunes 8
Old Mac 7 & 8


These are not all "original" ideas - for example the 7th at Ballyneal is loosely based on the 7th at Crystal Downs.  But it wasn't planned that way; I had to stare at the green site for several days before I realized that would be the perfect solution for it.

Pac Dunes 8? Wow! I adore 7 and 9, and find 8 to be a suitable transition. What am I missing?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
... If I don't know what the non-exceptional is, how can I create the exceptional? ...

The non-exceptional is so common. Can it be used to motivate the exceptional?
If you strive for the very best within you, I believe you have a chance for creating something exceptional.
Did Mozart understand the non-exceptional before he began to create the exceptional?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
... If I don't know what the non-exceptional is, how can I create the exceptional? ...

The non-exceptional is so common. Can it be used to motivate the exceptional?
If you strive for the very best within you, I believe you have a chance for creating something exceptional.
Did Mozart understand the non-exceptional before he began to create the exceptional?


Garland, I see what you're getting at, and would refer back to my earlier example with my brother. He probably has more capacity to build something exceptional than me, even though I know more on the subject, because he likely isn't bogged down in the rules / logical side of things that Ian refers to. He is only limited by his imagination as you say. But I would argue the chances of him creating something exceptionally bad far outweigh the chances of creating something exceptionally good. I guess I feel that if you are truly capable of creating something exceptional, you still need to have a basis before you can create that exceptionality.


Regarding Mozart, I can't say I know his life/work intimately, but I am led to believe he did most of his best known work later in his life. Although he was a prodigy from an early age, he didn't start creating exceptional music until he knew how he could be exceptional (ie - the intuitive & logical side worked together to create what we have today).

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0

Pac Dunes 8? Wow! I adore 7 and 9, and find 8 to be a suitable transition. What am I missing?


I believe the 8th at PD is based on the 3rd at Woking; you can work your ball off the right green side slope to get close to holes cut behind the bunker to the right.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Tim,

Mozart composed his first pieces at age 4 or 5. Exceptional for that age. He had an inherent feel for the great it would seem that did not depend on exposure to the mundane. That is not to say he didn't recognize the mundane, as he could immediately take the mundane and transform it to the great.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0

Pac Dunes 8? Wow! I adore 7 and 9, and find 8 to be a suitable transition. What am I missing?


I believe the 8th at PD is based on the 3rd at Woking; you can work your ball off the right green side slope to get close to holes cut behind the bunker to the right.

I guess my surprise is that he chose the 8th on a course that has 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13, 16, 17. I would put 8 on the level of 1, 3, 14, 15, 18 with 5, and 12 the weakest.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Garland:  I chose the 8th because I had no idea what to create there at the start of construction and then the idea for it came in a flash later on.  I know most people wouldn't single out that as one of the best holes, though I am personally quite fond of it.


By contrast, #7 was pretty obvious once we found the mounded features in front of the green, and #9 was more of a necessity, the only reasonable way I saw to get to #10 tee.

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
...

If the architect's aim is to build something "exceptional", he should be trying to do something different than he's done before, and that may entail taking chances with original or unusual ideas.


...  For that matter, what was exceptional when we built Pacific Dunes is no longer as exceptional today.

So when can we expect the next exceptional course from you? Or, was it The Loop? Or did Silvies Valley Ranch get that exceptional one?
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Peter Pallotta

Stravinsky was asked where great music came from. He said: I don't know if it emerges from the unconscious or from the supra-conscious, but I'm quite sure it doesn't emerge from the *self* conscious.
We've all played golf courses that were too obviously 'planned', too 'self conscious'. You can feel it/sense it -- an overall polish and refinement, including on/with the  notionally *unrefined* areas.
2 + 2 always equals 4. It all makes sense. Fault cannot be found. The results were calculated, double-checked (with colleagues and client both) and essentially predetermined. All of which is good for math and science, but not so good for magic, transcendence and art.
I suppose it's the double-edged nature of deep study and firm commitment and noble intention: without them, you can't hope to produce anything exceptional; but with them you risk the self-conscious striving for specialness that is the very death-knell of such specialness.
I have to admit that this is one of the reasons I'm skeptical about the actual/long lasting greatness of all these highly-ranked and instantly praised new courses of the last 5 years or so, ie with the consensus opinion about what characterizes great golf courses so firmly entrenched, how can any of the top architects *not* become 'self conscious'? How can courses not be 'too planned', right down to the 'random' details and perfectly manicured and maintained 'rough edges'?
Good work? Of course.
Very good work? I'm almost sure the answer is yes.
Great and exceptional work? I suppose so, once or twice -- but how can it *all* be exceptional?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 11:31:04 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pietro

Only time can determine true greatness so I do agree with you in the main.  To be honest, I think we will see some lists expand to a proper 200.  It sounds cumbersome, but its probably better than trying to squeeze a 100 list down. 

Ciao   
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0

Jeff_Brauer said, "I relate it to comedy, where the key is substitution of a new, completely different idea when everyone else would insert the tried and true."

IMHO Substitution will not get the job done...

Exceptional comes from removing yourself from the comfort of a framework you trust.


Ian,


Well, substituting anything but the tried and true could be uncomfortable, but I don't think being uncomfortable is at all related to creativity.  I agree on removing oneself from the "framework", i.e., the reference to Bob Gurr and that many great design ideas evolve outside the design process, and perhaps by purposely avoiding design process.


I am still of the opinion that creativity is basically having a brain that will continually consider alternative after alternative.  Most people are straight line thinkers.  Support for this concept comes somewhat from TD, who notes the flash of inspiration came after much time.  I can't know, but I bet he just kept thinking about ideas subconsciously until the best one came along.  Every so often, those come early since pondering various combinations is random, sometimes they come after a while.  The saddest ones are those that come after the hole has been grassed and it is too late to change.


Yes, I am using the logic side of the brain, but when discussing creativity, using the word intuition doesn't flesh out the idea as deeply as I think it should. 


And yes, the idea that someone could be supplanted by computer aided artificial intelligence because they can process a million times faster than we can comes into play.  Scary, but I love it.  Siri, what type of green fits a left to right sloping site?"  Siri: Have you considered copying 3 of the 5 basic features of 16 at ANGC?" LOL, but it could happen someday.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
And yes, the idea that someone could be supplanted by computer aided artificial intelligence because they can process a million times faster than we can comes into play.  Scary, but I love it.  Siri, what type of green fits a left to right sloping site?"  Siri: Have you considered copying 3 of the 5 basic features of 16 at ANGC?" LOL, but it could happen someday.

I think it is safe to say that for most golfers, the game is one of tradition, expectations, the familiar- 18 holes, tees and greens, a variety of hazards, a mix of 3, 4, and 5 pars, a notional standard of the number of strokes required by an advanced player to negotiate each hole and in total.  It has been a source of amusement and some irony over the years that not a small number of DG participants who appear to have no qualms with blowing up societal norms, conservative institutions, and classical economics react with rabid indignation at news of a revered course going under the knife for even the smallest nip or tuck.

Macdonald went to the U.K. (Hugh Wilson as well) to be informed, maybe inspired.  The narrative is that Macdonald came back with some 21 hole designs that he and his construction foreman and future template designer Seth Raynor employed in building their courses.  I suspect that most of you who design courses and the unwashed masses who play them are, at a minimum, directed subconsciously by similar concepts of holes and the many variations due to site, climate, and weather conditions.  I also think that clinging to this familiarity has a lot to do with architecture staying somewhat within the box (outside of this DG, the thought of building or producing something without much consideration of the consumer does not linger for long).

So, Jeff, yes, I can see AI helping the architect achieve workable solutions to problems much faster.  Of course, it will still be up to you to establish the objectives and perhaps adding the signature touches to differentiate the design.  I suppose that the old concern of being replaced (by a computer instead of a monkey) might crop up.

Perhaps the practice of gca might change in the direction of construction management.  I would still like to hear what really happened on #5 at The Bridges.  #18 as well.  Much to be said for the design/build model, I think, which AI might facilitate.   Even with Moore's Law hitting constraints, is it hard to picture a small all-terrain vehicle, air-conditioned, of course, equipped with enough computing power to make immediate real-time adjustments in the field?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0

Lou,


As to Bridges, on 18, they actually brought in a land planner to tweak my routing for better home lots, and that hole came as part of the deal.  Obviously, great to use the lake, but two forced carries is something I would never do.  The green had to be elevated to where it is for flood protection....so that hole definitely falls outside the bounds of creative genius.  On the fifth, the weeds were so high the contractor actually built the green at the second LZ point, but we were able to add a back tee to keep it somewhat the length intended.  The now dry creek was an attempt to mimic the first hole at TOC, but the developer was never on board with it and grassed it or cobbled it, it never had recirculating water.


The second example sure shows how, in my opinion, creative genius really is limited by practical matters in most facilities, where contrary to the old say....it really is the money that matters!  And, you can't fight mother nature, he who has the gold rules, if you can't maintain it, it will be gone in five years, and about a half dozen oft used clichés.....


Back on the happier topic, my example of AI is somewhat the musings of a wandering mind, but I have little doubt as to computers generally taking an increasing role in design, even if on the CM side.  I can't imagine your self contained vehicle working for a while, and agree I would have to program my key field design keys to change in for it to work.  For example, on most holes seeing the target from the hitting area is desired, and you could program a vehicle to stop at certain key points, and check for visibility, or traverse the fairways to see if there are any spots with surface grades less than 3%, since that is often a criteria.  I am sure I would want to see the finished product myself, though.  Just like that self driving car that hit a woman in the street, I would be wary of total automation.


We do use photo imaging to supplant site visits every once in a while.


Back to the main topic, I got to thinking again about Ian's comment about being uncomfortable to be creative.  My take would be that the truly creative personality would never feel uncomfortable, never know a box was there to break out of.........


However, as it is always a mix of practical and intuitive/artistic, we could both be right.  As Clint Eastwood might say, "A man has got to know his limitations" and I think I know where my tendencies lie and what I might need to do to overcome them in the design phase.  Ian is probably expressing the same.  And, I think we see it in golf course design, and know it when we see it when the basic approach is one of all out, out of the box thinking (think Mike Strantz) vs. some other very practical designer where everything is in the right place but it has no soul, etc.


The next debate would be whether the all out style of Mike Strantz is really better design than some other blend?  And, it would matter what our perspectives were more than the actual work.  The supers might hate it, some golfers might hate it, and some would love it for what it is, etc.  Which leads us to "horses for courses" where Mike's starting point was being different, and he met that goal.  But, design is always a blend and compromise, often giving up something to achieve something else.


Or, to bring it back to the OP, you absolutely can't define how to create exceptional architecture, but you can probably come up with several definitions, depending on your perspective as one of the end users.  Each architect varies in their blend or elements, and each end user varies in what is important to them.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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