Lido- Virtual Build

[Tommy Naccarato]

Peter, Congratulations! You’ve dragged me out of GCA retirement to make a comment here!


I’ve done a fair amount of research on Lido; as well as had many a great conversation with Uncle George Bahto about the place; one of the most memorable while driving back from Shinny/National as well as Macdonald & Raynor’s graves with the top down in his red Caddy Escalade! (The man had passion!)


One thing to add to this:  given the water table; where they got the sand (much of it was from the lagoon, probably more then the Channel, which was overly silty) the fairways were somewhat raised with everything between the holes somewhat more at natural grade (flat). Those areas, because the routing was so tight, we’re heavily planted with sea bent sprigs, which eventually made the place famous for lost golf balls.  So famous, that no one played it despite the architecture! This coupled with early agronomist issues were like a death kneel.


On the 8th, the hole literally played out on the beach!  It didn’t last long thanks to a hurricane condition which destroyed the hole.


Everything else looks pretty cool!  Looking forward to see how you handle the 10th with its Alp’s hill.

Tommy,


My good man...so glad to see you are still showing your face around these parts.  I haven't seen you on this site since Dr. Katz was "doling out prescriptions".  And...this will probably sound like "get off my lawn" guy, but I think it is humorous that you are listed as a "Junior Member" of GCA.  Ha!  You (and me) were posting here when this site had less than ten participants.  When I came back from my first hiatus, I too was labeled with the scarlet letter of a "Junior Member".  Ran has now promoted me to a "full member".  Good grief.  I think those of us in the first 10 posters should get some sort of badge identifying us as "GCA pioneers".  And...you and I may be in the minority of those first ten to have not been kicked off.  Just sayin'...   Hope you are well my friend.


TS

Ted, Honestly, I feel old and retired from these ranks nowadays! Lol!  Hard to believe it’s been 20+ years!  But, Peter has me blown away with this build.  I wish there was more time and energy to contribute to it but I’d get nothing done!

[Peter Flory]

Before I could get myself to move on to other holes, I have been refining #8 and the areas around the clubhouse(s) to match the photos.  It's really hard to get everything perfect and I have to try to match focal length on the cameras, etc.  The final mismatches area happening because it is hard to pin down exactly where the original #8 was.  I have used the positioning off of the plastacine layout, but it is possible that the realities on the ground caused it to be a few yards either direction.  I do have the clubhouses in their exact footprints and locked in with the rest of the course.  So, you'll see a slight mismatch, but within the standard of error that I have to accept to ever get this done.  After doing this exercise, I think that the original 8th hole was probably at least 5 yards more inland than where I built it.  I could just slide the clubhouse a little more toward the shore to adjust for that. 

Here are some comparison shots.  I really like how when I tried to get the same view angle, the swale in front of the green disappeared, just like in the photos.  The 9th tee looks more elevated in my version only because I haven't built up the areas yet between the camera and that tee. 

Because of the focal length, the building on the left appears closer or even with the one on the right.  But it is really much further back.  I used a similar camera setting, so the illusion shows on my screenshot as well. 




Here is a link for a video that shows the entire hole as I circle around it with a drone- it is a dropbox direct download link, which I hope is OK to do here.  It starts and ends with a camera angle similar to the photo above.  You can see how the swale becomes visible if you just elevate a little bit.  (Sorry for the choppiness). 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ahgx1yc6z2xjyjd/Hole%2008_zoom%20around_trimmed.mp4?dl=0

[Peter Pallotta]

Peter -
let me add my appreciation as well for this fascinating thread. I admire very much both your artistry and your technical know-how. And I can't stop wondering whether, 100+ years ago, CBM didn't have in his mind's eye the very 'image' that 100+ years later you're now managing to bring to life. In other words, your work suggests an 'idealized' Lido -- but perhaps it is the very ideal that CBM aimed for but that (life/the real world being what it is) he could never quite make manifest in time.
Thanks, a pleasure to follow your work
Peter

[Peter Flory]

Well, it's tough to say.  Almost all of the images that we see of the real thing were after he was already disgusted with what it had become... "love's labor lost."  I'm attempting to replicate the 1916+ version, but the program that I use won't let me scruff it up any more than I'm doing.  i.e. the fairways and greens are going to make it look like a modern day NGLA as far as turf conditions.  So, my philosophy here is to try to build the course as if it has survived all these years and as if they didn't move any dirt, just got control of the grasses. 

One really easy part about this is the lack of trees.  With most NLE revivals, that would be a tough decision- trying to figure out how wide the architect wanted the corridors to be when they planted some saplings.

In one respect though, I'm sure that I'm not going to be as daring on the greens as they really were.  I'm teasing out various contours on certain greens by comparing all sources with different sun angles.  And even on #9, I noticed that the contours are still there.  When I align the aerial over google earth, I can see the #1 elevated and the general gist of the breaks on the green.  But in many cases, I won't have much to go on, so I'll have to use judgment based on what the template was all about and what they did at other versions of it.  But there will be quirks on these greens that are lost in time forever.  I don't want to just make them up, so I'll err toward playing it safe when in doubt. 

[Peter Flory]

A little bit more progress... it's coming to life a bit:
- refined the 9th hole and the 1st hole for accuracy to 1926 aerials.  Worked a lot on the contouring and waste areas. 
- Filled in the sand in the hundreds of acres to the East of the course.  Tried to replicate the way that it looked in 1926 as you could see the circular waves in which the sand was pumped out and settled. 
- And most importantly- added the LIDO sign.  It originally said LIDO BEACH, but it's taking a lot of resources to use the little wood pieces that I used to build it and I'll run out of memory if I waste too much on this.  Just the LIDO section was 70 yards long.  And each letter was about 60 feet high.  In the 1940 aerials, the LIDO was still there and the BEACH was gone, so I feel OK about this sacrifice. 

View from the channel.  This was the purpose of the sign since it was facing that direction.






View from the approach to #1 after a big (250 yrds) drive to the left side of the fairway. 


(ignore the water to the right hand side over the clubhouse.  My plot cuts off and that would really be land there.  Can only see it from an elevated camera angle). 


I think that I should have time to actually get in a new hole before the end of the weekend.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Peter,

Stunning work, it is really fascinating watching this long lost treasure come back to life.  It's obvious how much time and effort you're putting into the course, I look forward to playing it once completed.

[Jim Nugent]

Peter,

Stunning work, it is really fascinating watching this long lost treasure come back to life.  It's obvious how much time and effort you're putting into the course, I look forward to playing it once completed.

Peter's creating such a fascinating picture of Lido, I wish I had the resources to buy land, along a suitable stretch of water, and (re)build the course.   

[Peter Flory]

1st draft of #10 is done (Alps). 





CBM wanted the hole to play as two full wood shots.  What an intimidating approach with only a partial view of the green.



The mounding in back was described as a "circus ring".  This is the likely view after a layup or punch out. 






Looking down from the alps.  Not sure anybody would end up here, but it's a good perspective. 



Looking back on the hole



This was a tough hole to do.  Luckily there was a very nice picture of the 10th green, otherwise I would not have guessed that the mounding was so severe or what the green looked like.  I have some more refining to do on the green, but this gets the basic shaping. 

[Thomas Dai]

This is quite remarkable. The more I see the more fascinated I am. Not just with the specific course and historic research details either, which are extremely impressive in their own right, but also with other essentially visual aspects like the shadows and the sky and the clouds.
Well done Peter and many thanks for keeping us updated with progress.
Atb

[Peter Flory]

I think that I probably made the alps too big after reviewing some alternate angles.  Lowering the mound is a very easy change.  The version that I have drafted is probably more what CBM wanted rather than what he was able to do. 


For the green, here is the real deal vs the render.  It's close, but not perfect.  The big square mound that you see on the horizon is the tee box to the Redan (16th).  And the rise to the left of that is the Knoll (13th) green complex.  The angle of the 16th tee box on mine is off, but will be corrected when I get to that hole. 

[Rob Rigg]

Peter - Thank you - Your Lido efforts have been amazing to follow. It looks stunning.

Even the Emperor was compelled to come out of retirement - That's saying something!

Chapeau!

[Bret Lawrence]

Great job Peter.  I like the 360 degree view of the Biarritz.  I think the third version is very realistic compared to the photos.  Looking forward to the rest of the course.


Bret

[Peter Flory]

Had a little bit of time last night and decided to try to knock out the first draft of an easier hole.  Went with #3 since it's a par 3 and since there are several pictures of it.  This is rough draft stage.  I haven't really worked on the green yet, except for a basic pass.  I also haven't done anything with #4 or the far side of the channel, so the peripheral isn't great. 

But it is good enough to get the gist of why it was a nice hole.  The accounts of it talk about the great illusion where it would appear as though the water was directly off the back of the green, even though there is a buffer to catch shots that go over the green.  Also, this hole often played into the wind, so with the clubs of the day, the carry over the water and the water to the left added some extra spice to the Eden.  I don't think that I have read an account yet where there wasn't deemed to be one of the better holes on the course.  What strikes me about it so far is how dangerous it looks off the tee, but how much room there really is on the hole.  From the aerial, it just doesn't look nearly as menacing as from the golfer's perspective. 





Some other views:

Filtered a bit to highlight the water looming over the green




Glancing back while crossing the bridge to the 4th fairway:

[Peter Flory]

I've been pretty busy lately with actual work and that may be the case for a while. 

But I did have time over the past week off and on to get a good rough draft of #4 done.  This was surely one of the most famous holes in America at one point in time. 

So inviting to the left and so intimidating to the right.  It's tough to see here, but there is a "hankerchief" of fairway to the right that you can see between the dunes when you stand on the tee.  The fairway over there is decently broad, but you only get a little glimpse of it.  Then factor in the hickory driver and the whipping wind.  But with those caveats, even left is no sure thing. I can imagine a lot of players ended up missing the left fairway to the right in the sand and grass.  (ignored the warped teeing ground in this one).



View of the shortcut (camera settings shortens the view here)


View from the left fairway after a long drive.  Note that I haven't added the 2nd bridge yet.  It is the same style as the other. 


3rd shot after laying up over hazard.  I have the green about 15 feet above fairway level.  Over the cross bunker, it continues to climb to the plateau green.  Missing over to the left is slightly better than over to the right (due to a bit of a drop off). 


Looking backwards from the green.  The view from up here would have been really nice.  There is a photo from the #12 green and the view looks very similar, so I'm hoping that I guess right on the amount of elevation.  There is also one photo of the #4 approach shot and I took that data into account. 


Bird's eye view to give perspective.


Comments are always welcome.  For this first draft, I couldn't get bogged down with perfection.  But now that it is at this stage, it is easy to make changes.


With #4, #8, and #10 drafted, I've gotten some of the hardest holes out of the way.  #12 will be the toughest one left.  So, I'm hoping that the holes don't take me quite as long going forward.  Also, the more holes that I do, the more the land gets built up and there isn't as much peripheral work to do.

[Joel_Stewart]

It's been quite a few months since the last post. I thought I would bump to see if anything is new?

[Peter Flory]

It's been quite a few months since the last post. I thought I would bump to see if anything is new?

Joel- I had to take a break due to work.  I run a consulting company and things got extremely busy over the summer.  I plan on getting back to this in another month or so. 


Whenever I complete a hole or run into questions where I want to tap into the group knowledge, I'll post again. 

[Jeff_Lewis]

Thanks for bringing this back up on the radar Joel.   This is the single coolest thing I have ever seen associated with golf course architecture by a LOT.   Thanks so much for sharing, Peter, and keep up the good work,.   

[Mark Hissey]

Peter:


I'd be really interested in meeting with you to chat. Whereabouts are you located?


MH

[Peter Flory]

I haven't done anything new, but I did have time to take some screenshots with the opposite sun angle.  It really changes the look of certain holes.  Note that these pics are larger size, so you have to scroll left to right to see them fully.  I did this to provide better resolution (they make really good screen backgrounds).

The 4th is really growing on me the more that I see of it.  I was initially a little turned off by the gimmicky premise, but it really does look very epic from ground level, especially with some backlighting. 

Some may be redundant, but here are some bonus views of the 4th with a setting sun instead of a morning sun. 

I can't wait to work on the 12th hole.  You can see the sketch of the elevated punchbowl green to the left of the 4th green complex.  They are both set up a bit on a mount/ plateau. 

[Peter Flory]

Hopefully this works. 


First birdie on the 4th hole in almost 80 years? My avatar used a 3wood and a 4 iron I believe to get home in 2 down the right hand fairway. 


Here is a direct link to download video of gameplay on PC with a nice fly over.  The real fun will be when it is sim ready and I can play it with hickory clubs and replica balls.   


https://www.dropbox.com/s/wg20r0ic6ylw578/LIDO_4th%20hole_play.mp4?dl=0

[Phil Carlucci]

Hopefully this works. 


First birdie on the 4th hole in almost 80 years? My avatar used a 3wood and a 4 iron I believe to get home in 2 down the right hand fairway. 


Here is a direct link to download video of gameplay on PC with a nice fly over.  The real fun will be when it is sim ready and I can play it with hickory clubs and replica balls.   


https://www.dropbox.com/s/wg20r0ic6ylw578/LIDO_4th%20hole_play.mp4?dl=0

That is fantastic.  Can't wait to see more!

[Marty Bonnar]

Hopefully this works. 


First birdie on the 4th hole in almost 80 years? My avatar used a 3wood and a 4 iron I believe to get home in 2 down the right hand fairway. 


Here is a direct link to download video of gameplay on PC with a nice fly over.  The real fun will be when it is sim ready and I can play it with hickory clubs and replica balls.   


https://www.dropbox.com/s/wg20r0ic6ylw578/LIDO_4th%20hole_play.mp4?dl=0

Absolutely marvellous, Peter.
Even down to the lens flaring in the sunset.
Awesome!
Cheers,
F.

[Peter Flory]

I have finally made a little more progress.  Started to build out the waste area between the #2 tee and the fairway.  It was a blind shot over ridge with a waste area in the shallow valley that bled over from the pumped sand dunes from the area east of the course.

Here is an artful description of the tee shot on the 2nd hole:

"Standing on the tee the golfer sees before him a stretch of tufted sand which will require a carry of 160 yards to clear. 

The far side of this sandy wilderness is above the level of the tee, so that he seems to be driving up hill.  With a head wind to face, this carry becomes a fearsome thing, but is only a foretaste of what the player is to find threatening him as he stands on subsequent tees. 

If there is one consolatory feature about this hazard, it is that it breaks the player gradually into the terrors awaiting him.  Perhaps he won't think so at the time and may believe that there is nothing mitigating in the stark horror of that carry, but as he proceeds over the course he may come to look back upon it as a place of peace, almost of joy."

Here is draft one of that scene from the 2nd tee:



View over 1st green.  On the 2nd, the fairway slopes downhill after the waste area is cleared. 

[Peter Flory]

I'm looking for some help for the 2nd hole.  This is the Plateau hole, which had a double plateau green. 

But the question is, what permutation of double plateau did it have?  There are references that they modeled the green after one of the contest entries, but I'm not sure if that entry was ever published.  If it was, please bring it to my attention. 

Here is how the plastacine looks.  Keep in mind that on the holes with photos, they seem to match the plastacine, so I'm going to default to it if that is the only info available.  The light source is coming from the top of the image. 



Here is the best aerial of it:


Notice how the basic structures can be seen in both, although not exactly the same.

Based on this, it looks to me like the left side of the green was one plateau and had some very minor punchbowl like rimming near the bunker and the left side of the green.  It also looks like the other plateau was front right and then there was a triangular knob that acted as a helper to hold shots on that level.  It appears as though there is a valley between the plateaus that leads to a lower back section. 

If this is true, then the closest comparison that I can think of is Fisher's Island (but imagine the back plateau in the photo shifted to the left side of the green instead.  Another similarity is the water beyond the green.) 


In the writings about the hole, there are numerous mentions of the double plateau, but none describe the geography of it enough for me to deduce anything about it. 

I believe that the way that I'm interpreting it would make it an unusual double plateau configuration.  Maybe so unusual that I'm making a mistake? 

I'll post again separately to show my first draft of it based on this information. 

[Peter Flory]

Here is draft #1 of the 2nd green and principal's nose bunker cluster (also unusual because of the 3rd bunker in the complex).





Pin in back middle (valley)



Updated aerial screenshot that shows the waste areas that I put in throughout the course to get that late teens sandy look before they let the grass take hold and crowd it out.