Lido- Virtual Build

[Peter Flory]

Well, after a lot of information gathering, I've finally started the Lido digital build.  So far, I've just traced out the aerial to scale.  Bunkers are placeholders until I do each one individually.  The roads are placeholders, but will expand them to their proper widths.  Need to dig out Reynold's Channel, etc.  Also, the 8th hole is a placeholder because the aerial that I used had the modified version.  I want to do the original biarritz on the edge of the beach later. 

This will take a while, but the end result will be that it will be available for play on Protee simulators (and gaming PCs, Xbox, PS4 through The Golf Club software). 

I'm hoping to tap the collective knowledge here to resolve areas of the course where the information is lacking.  I can make out a lot of the contours and will supplement that with information from written accounts and other CBM holes that he compares them to.  The hardest part of this will be to get the contours of the greens right on holes without good photos. 

Progress so far- looking toward the Atlantic



Here are a couple examples of the type of detail that will be in the final version (this is taken from a fictional course that I did):

[Nigel Islam]

Yeah that is super cool. I’m 46, but I’d buy an Xbox game for the chance to virtually play The Lido. Absolutely.

[Brian Finn]

This looks incredible. I don't think i can offer much help, but I'll certainly be following closely. I'm going to have to look into getting this game. Thank you for sharing.

[Jeff Schley]

I don't know anything about Lido, is it software program that allows building of landscape architecture or is it golf specific?  Also is this what golf course designers are using today?  Looks very cool and would help with visualizing a project if in a bid situation for differentiation. 

[Matthew Rose]

I've been using the Perfect Parallel software to create courses for the Jack Nicklaus Perfect Golf game - this is the same software used to design the winning contest hole at Sand Valley, as well as for some flyover graphics used on some TV broadcasts. I've also seen guys on YouTube playing some of these in SkyTrak simulators, including a few of mine.
I'm not familiar with TGC1 or TGC2 design software; I'm curious to see if the same sources for elevation can be used - most of my re-creations are from LIDAR data.

One thing I have not tried doing yet is trying to recreate something that no longer exists, but I suppose it would be a fun way to keep something alive. I know there's a guy doing a bunch of recreations of NLE's for Links 2003.

I have versions of Pebble Beach, Spyglass Hill, Royal Melbourne, Plainfield CC, Cherry Hills and Blackwolf Run River. I'm just finishing up Kingston Heath this weekend, and then I'm gonna work on Prairie Dunes. Here's what Pebble looks like:

[Tom_Doak]

Questions for those fascinated by computer golf:


1) do you also play screen golf, where you actually hit a ball to determine results?


2) are courses transferable between the two mediums?


3) are there any of your friends who really enjoy digital golf but don't play the real thing?  (If so, why?  Cost, disability, access, or something else?)

[Thomas Dai]

The graphics above look terrific.
Is the intent that they be available on an indoor simulator system?
atb

[Drew Groeger]

Questions for those fascinated by computer golf:

1) do you also play screen golf, where you actually hit a ball to determine results?

I do. It’s generally fun although the results can be mixed: sidehill lies from rough are difficult to simulate and short game shots sometimes end up in places you wouldn’t expect.

2) are courses transferable between the two mediums?

I can’t speak to this as I don’t use either of the packages mentioned above, I use other simulation software.

3) are there any of your friends who really enjoy digital golf but don't play the real thing?  (If so, why?  Cost, disability, access, or something else?)

No. For myself and others I know it’s the love of real golf that brings them to a simulator.

[Jim Nugent]

I don't know anything about Lido..

Jeff, Lido was a famous, short-lived golf course Charles B. MacDonald (kind of the father of US golf architecture) designed and built, I think during WWI (?).  Many back then called it the best course in the country, or at least one of the top few. 

CBM designed Lido like the National Golf Links (NGLA) and his other layouts, i.e. filled with templates of the best holes in GBI and Europe.  He built Lido up out of scratch from some low lying semi-links-type land just outside NYC on the ocean or at least the water.  Everything about Lido was manufactured: the dunes, the contours, the rolls and folds.  I think it had no trees, was tough as nails, cost a fortune to build, and at first was supported by some of the wealthiest men in the country. 

Things started falling apart, I believe in the 1920s, and the course became NLE by the early 1940s or so.  It's achieved kind of a mystical reputation, as one of CBM's finest courses: several have talked about recreating it in various spots, and that's why many of us are more than a little interested to see what Peter comes up with. 

 

[Jeff Schley]

Thanks Jim.  Very interesting history, fascinating. 

[Bret Lawrence]

Peter,


Here is a photograph of the 15th greenside bunker in 1931.  It almost looks like there is a "LIDO" sign in the background of the photo.  Reminds me a little of the "HOLLYWOOD" sign, but on a much smaller scale. 


New York Times-May 10, 1931

[Phil Carlucci]

Peter,


Here is a photograph of the 15th greenside bunker in 1931.  It almost looks like there is a "LIDO" sign in the background of the photo.  Reminds me a little of the "HOLLYWOOD" sign, but on a much smaller scale. 


New York Times-May 10, 1931

You can see that LIDO sign pretty clearly in some of the old aerial photos.  I have a few but don't know how to post them directly.  You can see and enlarge the photo in the linked Lido article below.  The sign was actually located well off the course to the east, on the grounds where the current course sits.

http://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2017/04/street-names-the-ghosts-of-long-island-golfs-past-part-2.html

[Brian Hilko]

Questions for those fascinated by computer golf:


1) do you also play screen golf, where you actually hit a ball to determine results?


If you have a gc2 launch monitor it is very accurate. Screen golf is different though. I swing much harder in the sim than in real life. I find myself hitting a club less or more into most holes because I play so aggressive. Short game will always be an issue on sim. The depth perception does not translate so you have to learn to play yardages and one dimensional with always playing higher lofted shots. The sim is great for those who can not get out to the course. You can play NGLA or Augusta at 11 pm when the family has gone to bed. I use perfect golf. You are able to transfer real terrain into the game so the course recreations are pretty amazing. I am currently working on a restoration of Spring Valley with the design software.


2) are courses transferable between the two mediums?


As stated above it is not perfect but most the course recreations have been spot on. The course selection list is a gcaers dream. It will never replace the real thing but it is a lot of fun when played on a good launch monitor that is accurate. Plus the courses always play firm and fast.


3) are there any of your friends who really enjoy digital golf but don't play the real thing?  (If so, why?  Cost, disability, access, or something else?)


Winter and nighttime play are the biggest drivers of sim golf in my area. The players that love sim golf understand they are playing a video game and not real golf. The short game can be hard to get over if you are a feel player. Once you get comfortable with sim golf it becomes addictive because you can shoot 5 or 6 strokes lower than your outside handicap. Hitting off a flat mat with perfect alignment really makes the game easier. For me the chance to play the great courses we talk about is the biggest selling point. National, Shinny, sebonack, ANGC, fishers island, cypress, Somerset hills, shoreacres, ballyneal, all the Bandon courses, and many more are on there. The selection is amazing.

[Bret Lawrence]

Phil:


Thanks for the link.  I had never noticed the Lido sign in the aerial before and now that I see it, it's hard to miss.  I guess the sign was much bigger than I realized.


Bret

[Matthew Rose]

Questions for those fascinated by computer golf:

1) do you also play screen golf, where you actually hit a ball to determine results?

2) are courses transferable between the two mediums?

3) are there any of your friends who really enjoy digital golf but don't play the real thing?  (If so, why?  Cost, disability, access, or something else?)

I've actually never played a round of simulator golf before. I've done it a few times when getting fitted for clubs.... I guess in the back of my mind, I wonder if I'm really getting accurate feedback. I'm also not particularly fond of hitting off Astroturf.

2. I play the game on my PC, and some courses I've done, with my PC, are being used in simulator units, so I would assume so.

3. I'd say almost everyone I know also plays real golf. I certainly do, and much prefer it. I'd say the reason I don't play more than I do is time and money; I have two kids under age 10 and I don't have much in the way of disposable income. When I do play it is usually muni or bust. I do encounter people in the communities for these games that only play computer or simulator golf, though, which I think is peculiar. But what is interesting is a lot of them tend to be older people.... when you think of video games you obviously think of it as a younger person's medium, but I find a lot of the people I encounter in online golf communities are 15, 20, 25 years older than me.... and I'm in my early 40s!

I think more than anything, designing courses on my computer is a compensatory outlet for my personal desire as a teenager to become a golf architect and my failure at following through on that desire.

[Kalen Braley]

I play WGT - World Golf Tour - from time to time. They have Merion, Bethpage Black, Pebble, Congressional, etc.


The cool thing about it is, they use hundreds of pictures they took at each course so they can show you the next shot from almost anywhere you end up.  So I guess its a PC version of the Simulator game...


And its free to boot, with the beginner clubs and balls of course. 

[James Brown]

Can anyone point me to a history of the evolution of the original Lido course into the site that still exists today?  There are still a couple of the original holes in the RTJ layout, at least approximately, right?

[Tom_Doak]

The only time I've ever played simulator golf had to be one of the earliest versions of them, back in the mid-1970's when I was a kid.  We were in Missouri in the middle of summer, hot and humid as heck, and they had a simulator with Pebble Beach on it.  Having played the real thing once, it seemed like a very weak substitute for Pebble ... especially with a bunch of flat putts!!

[Sven Nilsen]

RTJ course is on different land than the original.

[Brian Finn]

Can anyone point me to a history of the evolution of the original Lido course into the site that still exists today?  There are still a couple of the original holes in the RTJ layout, at least approximately, right?

The land on which the current Lido GC sits is right next to where The Lido once was. The location of the original course is now covered by grounds for three schools and some neighborhood on the north side of Lido Blvd, and a neighborhood (as well as parking lot for a public beach) on the south side of the road.  If you find the hotel in the bottom left of where the course once was, you will see a few golf-themed roads (redan, bunker, fairway) just above it.  The current course has a couple of holes that attempt to reproduce originals, including the channel hole. It does not reach the ocean, as the original did - the entire course is north from the road to Reynolds Channel. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Can anyone point me to a history of the evolution of the original Lido course into the site that still exists today?  There are still a couple of the original holes in the RTJ layout, at least approximately, right?

James:


Probably everything you'd want to know about Lido, and more:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html


Sven

[James Brown]

Can anyone point me to a history of the evolution of the original Lido course into the site that still exists today?  There are still a couple of the original holes in the RTJ layout, at least approximately, right?

James:


Probably everything you'd want to know about Lido, and more:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,60459.0.html


Sven

Thank you!  I remember reading about Lido for the first time in Lost Links and seeking it out when I did an internship on Long Island 20 years ago.  Had no idea the lagoon hole was a replica.  Thought it was just in dispepair and the last relic of the original. 


Never saw the land comparison until now.

[Joel_Stewart]

Well, after a lot of information gathering, I've finally started the Lido digital build.  So far, I've just traced out the aerial to scale.  Bunkers are placeholders until I do each one individually.  The roads are placeholders, but will expand them to their proper widths.  Need to dig out Reynold's Channel, etc.  Also, the 8th hole is a placeholder because the aerial that I used had the modified version.  I want to do the original biarritz on the edge of the beach later. 


Here are a couple examples of the type of detail that will be in the final version (this is taken from a fictional course that I did):

Great stuff.  Wouldn't this hole look better without the trees?


Is 3D coming soon?

[Cal Seifert]

Anyone interested in playing virtual golf on real courses should look into getting Links 2003 on their computer.  The graphics are a bit outdated but the game runs smooth and the website LinksCorner is loaded with real courses with free downloads.  I have played Shinnecock, Merion, PB, PV, Prairie Dunes, Oakmont, Bayonne, Banff, Troon, TOC, Dornoch, ETC.

[Jack Carney]

Jeff - In addition to Jim's description of the Lido is the connection of CB Macdonald, Seth Raynor and Dr Alister Mackenzie. My understanding is that Mackenzie had been designing courses in the UK including Alwoodley, Darlington and Moortown and had worked some with HS Colt. In 1914 Mackenzie won a "design a hole contest" in Country Life magazine (Bernard Darwin). The contest was using the land where the 18th hole at the Lido was to be built and the prize was to have the hole considered for creation of what was going to be one of the best courses in the world at that time. I believe that while the design was changed a bit the hole was indeed created as the 18th at The Lido. This is a significant historical link between these four great classic period architects. Mackenzie went on to partner with Colt and Alison for a few years before going out on his own and doing much more work in the USA. The rest of course is history.