Why is there little love for the 9th at TOC?

[Dave McCollum]

Count me as a fan.  My one play, it was where we turned downwind for the first time.  We were basically clueless without the caddies who told us to ignore the wide open beautiful fairway in front of the tee.  Instead, they said to hit it down the right side with a draw or down the left with a fade and emphatically avoid the shot down the middle.  My two playing partners hit good drives mostly down the middle and seemed pleased with their efforts.  The caddies looked at their shoes and said nothing.  Hitting last, I chose the fade to the left and put one up into the brisk helping wind, as instructed.  I looked for my caddie’s reaction as I handed him my driver.  He didn’t say a word or change his neutral expression.  He took the driver and handed me my putter.  Very cool moment for a hack like me.   

Three putted for par, of course.

[Mark Pearce]

I'd build a lake in front of the green.  In fact, why not a lake all around it?  With a bridge to walk across?  And a fountain?

[ward peyronnin]

Don't frgit the designated drop area Mark

[Kalen Braley]

When I googled "Scottish Castles with moats", a whole boat load of pics came up.


Given its in Scotland, I think this would fit right in as a tribute to its heritage and all...

[Jon Wiggett]

ATB

Lets put it this way...do you know of a good course that would be enhanced with the addition of TOC's 9th?  If you say yes its clutching at long straws. Its a dull hole and not just in the company of TOC's back nine. 

Ciao

Maybe Sean, but when taken in the context of the whole course I think it adds something to the rhythm of the round. Like the 7th at Dornoch, I think the player needs a respite from the onslaught of the courses features in order to prevent finding the round overwhelming and therefore not enjoyable.

Jon

Onslaught? Any CAD jockey could whip up something better and unobtrusive to the "rhythm of the round".  I have heard it all when the 9th is defended as something which makes TOC more enjoyable...come on.

Ciao

Sean,

is that the only thing you have to back up your point of view? REALLY!!! It is clear to all that you really do not like the 9th though you provide no reasons for this. Can you construct a pro/con essay for the 9th to reach a conclusion or is it going to be a continuation of rubbishing any opinion that does not agree with you?

Any fool can make a statement but it takes insight to back it up.

Tchuess

Jon

I don't hate the 9th, but I don't buy for a NY minute that the hole is special or essential to the TOC experience or design...its the Ikea furniture of TOC.  The reasons for my meh attitude toward the 9th are self evident for those who are objective.  Sometimes ya gotta call a spade a spade. I am still perplexed as to why this hole hasn't been seriously improved while unnecessary work on other parts of the course is carried out. I guess it takes all sorts 

Ciao

Sean,


thanks for the explanation as to why you think what you do. Your in-depth analysis of the pro/cons of the ninth really highlights your grasp of the subject and ability to communicate it in a way that even the dimmest such as I can understand. A spade is a spade, brexit is brexit ......


If it is so self evident why you have an opinion of the ninth then why are you unable to articulate it?


Jon

[Kalen Braley]

I've only played it in a few different game simulators....but it seems to me the 9th is out of character with the rest of the course, and even to some extent the 8th....

[Sean_A]

ATB

Lets put it this way...do you know of a good course that would be enhanced with the addition of TOC's 9th?  If you say yes its clutching at long straws. Its a dull hole and not just in the company of TOC's back nine. 

Ciao

Maybe Sean, but when taken in the context of the whole course I think it adds something to the rhythm of the round. Like the 7th at Dornoch, I think the player needs a respite from the onslaught of the courses features in order to prevent finding the round overwhelming and therefore not enjoyable.

Jon

Onslaught? Any CAD jockey could whip up something better and unobtrusive to the "rhythm of the round".  I have heard it all when the 9th is defended as something which makes TOC more enjoyable...come on.

Ciao

Sean,

is that the only thing you have to back up your point of view? REALLY!!! It is clear to all that you really do not like the 9th though you provide no reasons for this. Can you construct a pro/con essay for the 9th to reach a conclusion or is it going to be a continuation of rubbishing any opinion that does not agree with you?

Any fool can make a statement but it takes insight to back it up.

Tchuess

Jon

I don't hate the 9th, but I don't buy for a NY minute that the hole is special or essential to the TOC experience or design...its the Ikea furniture of TOC.  The reasons for my meh attitude toward the 9th are self evident for those who are objective.  Sometimes ya gotta call a spade a spade. I am still perplexed as to why this hole hasn't been seriously improved while unnecessary work on other parts of the course is carried out. I guess it takes all sorts 

Ciao

Sean,

thanks for the explanation as to why you think what you do. Your in-depth analysis of the pro/cons of the ninth really highlights your grasp of the subject and ability to communicate it in a way that even the dimmest such as I can understand. A spade is a spade, brexit is brexit ......

If it is so self evident why you have an opinion of the ninth then why are you unable to articulate it?

Jon

Its fairly obvious you admire a hole which I think is not worthy of admiration, hence I don't think there is anything to be in depth about the 9th.  Its a dull, lifeless, ugly hole. The two following par 4s are far and away better examples of the short 4...when combined with the 3rd, 7th & 16th they offer plenty of scope for short to modest length two-shotters (not to mention the 1st, 6th & 18th).  I suggest you look at those holes for clues as to why the 9th is exceedingly mediocre. TOC has too many holes in a 70 yard range and the 9th doesn't add anything to the pot....I have said all this before. 

There are no easy solutions for the 9th because TOC is simply saturated with short to modest length par 4s.  The obvious angle is to create a par 3, but then there would be three 3s in four holes...not ideal...but I would prefer it to the plethora of short 4s and with the 9th as the weakling.  Otherwise, I guess the bunkering has to be more problematic and/or perhaps the left trouble better used.

Ciao 

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,


thanks FINALLY for giving some sort of an answer, was that really so difficult? I am not sure that I admire the hole individually but I do appreciate what it brings to the course as a whole. Yes, it is quite dull/lifeless compared to much of what precedes and follows it but I am willing to cut it some slack as it is mainly due to the land it is laid out over and at the time of its creation there would not have been the ability nor probably the inclination to create any movement.


I do like it's 'lay of the land' honesty because I feel TOC has more than enough holes where there is plenty of natural ground movement. Though much of the effect of this movement has been reduced through mowing the fairways too low and I would welcome a return to a higher cut which allowed the ball to stick to the slopes rather than slide down to a flatter lie as they do now.


The ninth also is one of only two par 4s where the OOB is on the left. Yes, it is a hole with little to no real demands on the golfer except the very obvious OOB an bunkers which is a stark contrast to every other hole on the course but this combined with the differing wind and light often leads to a drop shot for the golfer who pays it too little attention. I would suggest that the only real difficulty with the hole is the size of the green combined with the flatness making judging getting close to the hole on the approach shot really difficult.


The ninth is clearly not one of the worlds great holes nor possibly even a good hole but it does offer a much needed change of pace for the golfer before he/she is re-immersed into the rolling sea and deep pit holes of the back nine. As such I feel it adds an extra dimension to the course as a whole.


As to how it could be improved, I would suggest a sizable (2 to 3 foot high) mound in the front of the green slightly to the left side making the player decide off the tee whether to take on the OOB or play well out to the right in order to get at left sided hole positions would make the play of the hole more interesting. Though, whilst this might make the hole more interesting to play I am not sure if this would add anything to the course as a whole nor that it might not be detrimental to the course overall. This is certainly my concern with the 7th at Dornoch.


Jon

[Andy Stamm]

Jon, there's no out of bounds on the 9th. If your point is that the bundai is left, that's of course very true, and it's one of the few places a lost ball is a real possibility, so it's certainly the place to avoid.


The other thing for me that's noteworthy is that it's the rare short par 4 that's just dead simple. A more actively designed course would likely have a hole that short be very tricky in some way. The (original) Eden has wonderful short 4s, but they're very tricky at the green certainly but also up to the green. Instead the 9th's green is as dead flat and simple as can be, which is actually quite unique. A green that large and flat (and a fairway that open) breaks all the 'rules' of what a short 4 should be.


All that means the golfer has a lot of pressure to score well at the hole, which happens much less frequently than it 'should.'

[Jon Wiggett]

Andy,

is not the New OOB? I was under the impression it was but having never hit it over there I have never really paid it much attention.

Jon

[Mark Pearce]

Andy,

is not the New OOB? I was under the impression it was but having never hit it over there I have never really paid it much attention.

Jon

Didn't Paul Dunne play from the New during the 2015 Open?

[jeffwarne]

The other thing for me that's noteworthy is that it's the rare short par 4 that's just dead simple. A more actively designed course would likely have a hole that short be very tricky in some way. The (original) Eden has wonderful short 4s, but they're very tricky at the green certainly but also up to the green. Instead the 9th's green is as dead flat and simple as can be, which is actually quite unique. A green that large and flat (and a fairway that open) breaks all the 'rules' of what a short 4 should be.


All that means the golfer has a lot of pressure to score well at the hole, which happens much less frequently than it 'should.'

and while such a hole will not make a course great, it fits perfectly on a great course

[Andy Stamm]

Andy,

is not the New OOB? I was under the impression it was but having never hit it over there I have never really paid it much attention.

Jon

No, the only out of bounds on the way out is right of the first, the new is in play the whole way.

[Bob Montle]

Andy,

is not the New OOB? I was under the impression it was but having never hit it over there I have never really paid it much attention.

Jon

Nor vice-versa either!
On my first visit, I hooked my tee shot on New #1 onto TOC.
I loved telling folks back in the states how I "played" TOC without paying!