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Cal Seifert

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2018, 02:37:10 PM »
Can't get through the paywall to read it but I'm sure the future of golf will not be hitting into a simulator when its summertime across the country. 



« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 02:39:07 PM by Cal Seifert »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2018, 02:45:13 PM »
The sub-heading points out that simulator golf is more popular in South Korea, but at the risk of stating the obvious… South Korea isn't the United States. Or the UK.

In my experience, a simulator leaves a lot to be desired for the actual golfers out there, and doesn't do much to help beginners very much.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jeff Schley

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2018, 02:52:03 PM »
Simulator?  We have global warming and it will be 75 degrees in Chicago in Jan/Feb in 5 more years right?  NO need.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2018, 04:52:46 PM »

No, but I can imagine for many golfers, it will be at a brightly lit Top Golf, or similar. This article is about golf in South Korea, which seems sort of like back when Japan had more driving range golfers than real ones. 

Think about it.  What is satisfying about golf?  Well lots of things, but a well struck golf shot is the one thing that cannot be replaced.  Thus, a version of golf that allows that satisfaction, say, 20 times per minute rather than 40 times per 4 hours should be very popular.  Sort of like off track betting rejuvenated horse racing. The betting junkies were able to place bets almost constantly by watching races all over the country, as opposed to a live track with six races over 4 hours.


Banging balls is even more fun with simulators or the digital tech of Top Golf .  I think new and different scoring systems and games could enhance golf above and beyond the standard system of "what did you take on that hole?"  And even more satisfying when you can do this at a well lit range (perhaps with some well lit golfers....) after work in an hours time, perhaps at a facility on the way home from work, further reducing the time commitment, and perhaps allowing you to beat rush hour traffic.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 05:00:14 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2018, 04:58:50 PM »
*
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 05:00:46 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2018, 06:23:05 PM »
I have been wondering about this for twenty years now.  I think it's inevitable.  The current generation of kids is now all about "screen time" ... and e-sports are now sports covered on TV.  [I didn't see that coming!]  I give it one or two more generations before most golf courses are seen as unsustainable, and more people play by VR than on the ground.


I don't think Pine Valley and Bandon Dunes are going anywhere ... but I think they will be viewed increasingly as luxuries for the rich, much more than they already are.


The only way around this is if golf becomes appreciated more as physical recreation.  With all of that screen time, there will be a greater need and appreciation for recreation in the great outdoors.  Golf is all of that, but it's one of the most expensive versions of outdoor recreation available.




Jeff_Brauer

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2018, 07:41:19 PM »

Yes, I think traditional golf will need to be marketed as old school charm, mild exercise, and maybe a nature walk.  While golf courses being "natural" will offend a few environmentalists, I figure if Disney can market their parks- about as contrived an experience as their is - to this generation as the "ultimate adventure vacation" then golf can market itself as a nature walk (it might take some more exterior landscaping for full effect)


But as I said, while traditionalists will blanche, in reality, it says more about the strength of golf and its ability to morph to fit the times and new audiences.  Just as restaurants serve different markets, different golf facilities should probably evolve to serve the different niches better than our current one size fits all approach and not be stuffy about it.


As always, just MHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jake Marvin

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2018, 09:56:49 PM »
I think it's inevitable.  The current generation of kids is now all about "screen time"...


I'm going to stick up for the kids here... obviously, there is more screen time, but only because access to screens has risen so much. We should be less worried about what they're doing inside and more worried about the fact that they're outside less, which they are to an extent. Much of that, however, is due to the fact that things just aren't how they used to be - parents can't just let the kids roam around the neighborhood anymore, at least in most places. So yeah, kids ought to get out more, but I don't think they need to be coaxed to do so. Presenting the opportunity will often do the trick.


On another note... as far as golf goes, we face a huge opportunity to bring juniors into the game, if courses and the industry as a whole will step up to the plate. I know this group isn't the type that spends a lot of time at run-down munis and par three courses (the types of places that typically cater to younger players), but there are tons of juniors out there who could just as well be playing video games. Frankly, the industry as a whole does a half-hearted job of catering to juniors (and women and minorities, for that matter). As a result, we're convincing ourselves that we fight a losing battle to preserve golf, when we actually just aren't taking steps that could easily get young people to start playing and keep playing the game. Kids don't want to play golf on simulators any more than we do, and the future of golf won't be in a dimly lit basement unless the industry lets it reach that point. Rant over.

Joe Hancock

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2018, 11:41:37 PM »
The main reason why screen golf is so popular in South Korea is due to it’s mountainous terrain, making development of real golf courses very difficult and very expensive. The don’t have nearly enough land to grow food let alone build enough golf courses to satisfy the demand.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Rich Goodale

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2018, 05:13:35 AM »
This reminds me of 20-30 years ago when the pundits pontificated that golf was turning Japanese with driving ranges being the futuristic soup du jour.  NOT.


As for golf morphing into a computer game, NOT too.  It's cute whacking a ball into a screen and watching what happens next, but it has NO tactile interaction with the club and the land and NO serious sense of what happens after the ball lands.  And, you are playing in a basement and not in the natural world, where you get fresh air, beautiful sceneries, cardiovascular positivity, and camaraderie.


I hope I am not wrong.....








Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Mike_Young

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2018, 07:21:25 AM »
Golf will be ok.  The "Industry" may not be able to grow it as they wish by putting out things such as TopGolf and First Tee and the other hype but the actual game will take care of itself.  The overkill may go away and the national marketing hype of the various "best new" and resorts may lessen some but basic golf across America will be fine.  It's a mom and pop game and you can't force it into a "big business".   Batting cages did not replace baseball.  When something is priced out of the market it either adjust or goes away.  It doesn't matter if it's a TV, a car , house or golf.  Golf has been priced out of the market and it will prevail in the field not basements...
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 07:41:56 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Thomas Dai

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2018, 07:40:34 AM »
Not sure its the future of golf but indoor simulator golf, where you actually hit shots into a screen showing views of the hole your playing is I find pretty useful in keeping my game in shape during periods of poor weather. 18-'holes' in only 30-40 mins as well. I'd certainly rather use one than go on a driving range. Not so helpful for short game and putting as for longer shots, give me an an outdoor chipping/putting green every time, but still worthwhile. Clubs pros seem to find them useful for clubfitting and teaching etc.
Overall I see them as an indoor enhancement to the game rather than as a indoor replacement for an outdoor game.


atb



Jeff_Brauer

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2018, 08:18:20 AM »

Mike,


I agree traditional golf will be fine, as well.  It's just that the Top Golf and hopefully other models will add to the "golf like" offerings that might be greater recreational opportunities that people seem to crave.  Hopefully, we will still maintain our 25 Million golfers or whatever 8% or our population is, but have another 25 million/8% that dabble in simulators. Whether they ever cross over or not, it can't hurt to have more people enjoying golf their way.


For some reason, while golf has been successful in molding its players into very traditional 18 hole rounds in foursomes, I get the feeling the next few generations will demand more change to the old game to enjoy it their way, not ours.  Of course, as always, time will tell.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2018, 09:42:02 AM »
Not sure its the future of golf but indoor simulator golf, where you actually hit shots into a screen showing views of the hole your playing is I find pretty useful in keeping my game in shape during periods of poor weather. 18-'holes' in only 30-40 mins as well. I'd certainly rather use one than go on a driving range. Not so helpful for short game and putting as for longer shots, give me an an outdoor chipping/putting green every time, but still worthwhile. Clubs pros seem to find them useful for clubfitting and teaching etc.
Overall I see them as an indoor enhancement to the game rather than as a indoor replacement for an outdoor game.




I agree entirely. Most club pros seem to have invested in "swing studios" with these simulators for teaching purposes and for renting out to members for practice or for a competitive game when the weather is bad.


I can see the simulator replacing the traditional driving range. Most old clubs in the UK have very limited practice facilities near the clubhouse - such things were just not a priority 100 years ago when most members' clubs came into being. What they do generally have however, is plenty of clubhouse space - too much in many cases.


2 or 3 computerised bays in the the clubhouse would provide all the long and medium game practice facilities a club needs for players to hit a few balls before a game, before heading to the chipping/putting green. The space savings are potentially phenomenal. Clubs lucky enough to have a driving range could use it for something else or even develop it at a healthy profit.


I'm sure most people would much rather warm up on a simulator than hit a few balls in a net or visit a range on the way to the club before a game.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 01:06:21 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Jeff Schley

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2018, 09:46:18 AM »
Not sure its the future of golf but indoor simulator golf, where you actually hit shots into a screen showing views of the hole your playing is I find pretty useful in keeping my game in shape during periods of poor weather. 18-'holes' in only 30-40 mins as well. I'd certainly rather use one than go on a driving range. Not so helpful for short game and putting as for longer shots, give me an an outdoor chipping/putting green every time, but still worthwhile. Clubs pros seem to find them useful for clubfitting and teaching etc.
Overall I see them as an indoor enhancement to the game rather than as a indoor replacement for an outdoor game.





I'm sure most people would much rather warm up on a simulator than hit a few balls in a net or visit a range on my way to the club before a game.

If they club doesn't have a range, then yes I would prefer a simulator to a net or stopping elsewhere.  However, I think short game areas where chipping and bunkers are there are invaluable and not sure you can replace that.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Derek_Duncan

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2018, 09:46:30 AM »
Not sure its the future of golf but indoor simulator golf, where you actually hit shots into a screen showing views of the hole your playing is I find pretty useful in keeping my game in shape during periods of poor weather. 18-'holes' in only 30-40 mins as well. I'd certainly rather use one than go on a driving range. Not so helpful for short game and putting as for longer shots, give me an an outdoor chipping/putting green every time, but still worthwhile. Clubs pros seem to find them useful for clubfitting and teaching etc.
Overall I see them as an indoor enhancement to the game rather than as a indoor replacement for an outdoor game.


atb


How do you putt on simulators anyway? Or at TopGolf? I've never done either.


It's going beyond the obvious to say that putting is an elemental part to golf, and great greens are what makes or breaks great courses. I can't understand how looking at something on a two or even three dimensional screen can come anywhere close to replicating the enjoyment of standing on a moving green, sensing contour underfoot, and watching how your ball actually reacts to gravity.


Maybe the future of golf is just hitting drivers and irons and claiming a virtual two-putt on every "green."
www.feedtheball.com -- a podcast about golf architecture and design
@feedtheball

SB

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2018, 10:55:36 AM »
Hate to break it to you, but it's already happening.  There are more than a few golf courses that offer simulator golf leagues during the winter months.  Just google indoor golf league.  It keeps the clubs busy and gives golfers an option besides parking their clubs for 6 months.  I'd do it at my course in Atlanta except that we really only have 2 months where I think we'd have the demand, and it doesn't justify the investment.  At the PGA show it was the big thing with lots of new technology.

BCowan

Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2018, 11:00:26 AM »
S,


  I know you have maybe 2 cold months in Hotlanta, but what about the Summer time?  AC simulator verse heat stroke Golf in July/Aug?  I think simulators in clubhouses would be great, get members drinking/eating and utilizing the clubhouse (aka money pit)   

Rich Goodale

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2018, 01:35:24 PM »
Not sure its the future of golf but indoor simulator golf, where you actually hit shots into a screen showing views of the hole your playing is I find pretty useful in keeping my game in shape during periods of poor weather. 18-'holes' in only 30-40 mins as well. I'd certainly rather use one than go on a driving range. Not so helpful for short game and putting as for longer shots, give me an an outdoor chipping/putting green every time, but still worthwhile. Clubs pros seem to find them useful for clubfitting and teaching etc.
Overall I see them as an indoor enhancement to the game rather than as a indoor replacement for an outdoor game.


atb

How do you putt on simulators anyway? Or at TopGolf? I've never done either.


It's going beyond the obvious to say that putting is an elemental part to golf, and great greens are what makes or breaks great courses. I can't understand how looking at something on a two or even three dimensional screen can come anywhere close to replicating the enjoyment of standing on a moving green, sensing contour underfoot, and watching how your ball actually reacts to gravity.


Maybe the future of golf is just hitting drivers and irons and claiming a virtual two-putt on every "green."


If a 3-D element could be added (for both drives, approaches and (most importantly--on and near the green), this could be a great winter/rain day option per Derek and if costs are reasonable.  Has anybody cracked that problem?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 01:40:59 PM by Rich Goodale »
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2018, 03:16:15 AM »
I have been wondering about this for twenty years now.  I think it's inevitable.   I give it one or two more generations before most golf courses are seen as unsustainable, and more people play by VR than on the ground.


I don't think Pine Valley and Bandon Dunes are going anywhere ... but I think they will be viewed increasingly as luxuries for the rich, much more than they already are.


The only way around this is if golf becomes appreciated more as physical recreation.  With all of that screen time, there will be a greater need and appreciation for recreation in the great outdoors.  Golf is all of that, but it's one of the most expensive versions of outdoor recreation available.


I think Tom is absolutely right, and that screen golf is just another nail in the coffin of many undistinguished local golf courses.


A young former employee of mine was always disparaging of my golf habit. It was the least cool activity he could imagine. Then he left to go travelling with his girlfriend and spent a couple of months in Korea.


On his return he raved about the attractions of Screen Golf. He had spent hours in bars in Seoul playing golf. I suggested a game on a real golf course and he looked at me as though I'd got two heads. It held no appeal whatsoever.


This is what we're up against, in all walks of life. My teenage son spends virtually no face-to-face time with his many "friends"; he doesn't see the point when he can play games and chat with them from the comfort of his den.


Even us oldies are not immune. I would like to bet that we all spend more time talking bollocks online than we do in bars these days.


"Real" golf's USP is that it is the ideal exercise for the middle-aged.  Other than that it relies on becoming an addiction for its adherents. The problem is attracting sufficient new players to give it a go.

Phil Carlucci

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2018, 10:26:13 AM »
If a 3-D element could be added (for both drives, approaches and (most importantly--on and near the green), this could be a great winter/rain day option per Derek and if costs are reasonable.  Has anybody cracked that problem?

I'm no expert but I don't think simulator golf will replace even the most dull muni anytime soon unless the cost of a "round" drops, and drops significantly.  I've found that 18 holes in a simulator at an indoor golf center often costs more than a round at a muni and just as much as or close to green fees at moderate local publics, and it's hard for me to justify that type of expense for an experience that simply doesn't measure up.  Quite frankly, I'd rather hit a bucket for $10 and get real feedback, or just stay home and play Tiger Woods Golf on XBox; heck, if given the choice I'd hook up my old Sega Genesis and play Sawgrass on the old 1991 PGA Tour game rather than drop $60 on a round in a sim.

A handful of indoor golf centers have opened around here in the past 10 years with simulators as their marquee attraction, and nearly all have flopped.  The few that have succeeded have done so, from what I can tell, because they either focus primarily on lessons/training/fitting with sim golf as a secondary feature, or because they are more indoor "sports" centers with sim golf, again, just one feature of a facility that might include other sim sports, a bar, food, etc.
Golf On Long Island: www.GolfOnLongIsland.com
Author, Images of America: Long Island Golf

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2018, 10:39:12 AM »
Quite frankly, I'd rather hit a bucket for $10 and get real feedback, or just stay home and play Tiger Woods Golf on XBox; heck, if given the choice I'd hook up my old Sega Genesis and play Sawgrass on the old 1991 PGA Tour game rather than drop $60 on a round in a sim.



Holy crap!  I had no idea these games were that expensive.


A friend of mine keeps telling me he's enjoying playing Pacific Dunes and Cape Kidnappers on some simulator in his hometown, and teasing me whether I get any royalties for that.  I don't - though there are some later contracts where they would have to get my permission - but I presume that my clients got paid something for letting them use the course on a simulator.  And maybe it's more than I thought they'd get?


There is no reason for those games to cost $60 though.  If enough people play them the price should go way down, which is the only way they are going to compete with real golf ... they've gotta be cheaper.

Buck Wolter

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2018, 11:07:31 AM »
Quite frankly, I'd rather hit a bucket for $10 and get real feedback, or just stay home and play Tiger Woods Golf on XBox; heck, if given the choice I'd hook up my old Sega Genesis and play Sawgrass on the old 1991 PGA Tour game rather than drop $60 on a round in a sim.



Holy crap!  I had no idea these games were that expensive.


A friend of mine keeps telling me he's enjoying playing Pacific Dunes and Cape Kidnappers on some simulator in his hometown, and teasing me whether I get any royalties for that.  I don't - though there are some later contracts where they would have to get my permission - but I presume that my clients got paid something for letting them use the course on a simulator.  And maybe it's more than I thought they'd get?


There is no reason for those games to cost $60 though.  If enough people play them the price should go way down, which is the only way they are going to compete with real golf ... they've gotta be cheaper.


My Son and I played Kidnappers at our local simulator (high end public course set up in a banquet room) -- good setup with some trackman 'lite' capabilities and good graphics -- kind of like the shot tracker on PGA broadcasts. They have 2 'bays' and they have to have someone there the whole time --full bar which is nice. We do a one putt max and can play 18 holes in a 2 some in an hour @$35/hour. I have to imagine each bay is +$50K with all the electronics, mats, screen and with the labor $35/hr seems reasonable and beats Ice Fishing.
Those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience -- CS Lewis

jeffwarne

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Re: "Is the Future of Golf in a Dimly Lit Basement?"
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2018, 11:11:32 AM »
A slight threadjack, but is there anything cooler than a net by the first tee to hit three or four balls?
I never hit balls overseas before I play but I love these nets.

Royal County Down has one hidden away back and to the right, but my absolute favorite is the one at Northwest Golf Club behind #1 tee facing out into the bay


Isn't it ironic that many US clubs think that things like practice nets and pull carts "look bad"
The clutter police definitely take it too far in America-it's hard to even find a garbage can these days...


Simulator golf is not a bad thing for winter areas but it's no substitute(I guess it's getting closer with the flattening and tightening of fairways)-and putting is a joke.
I love playing St. Andrews on a simulator but a tree lined course is a recovery nightmare :)
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

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