News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #225 on: March 03, 2018, 08:03:27 AM »

I'll never abandon the 2-iron.


How old are you again?  Oh, right.  Get back to us about that in 15-20 years 😀

In the two times you've borrowed my clubs, you mean to tell me you were never at least tempted?

I think my current little crisis about potentially swapping out the 3 and 4-irons is endemic to this equipment debate. The thing I can do with the 2-iron is carry it that approximate 200 yard distance and have it roll out another 20-30 yards. That is useful. Considering the 3 and 4-iron only present the same shot option with commensurate reduction in distance I find that less useful and need a higher shot. Ten years ago I resisted hybrids because of the lack of trajectory control but I am finding a need to get the ball airborne quickly that will carry 190 yards and stop.

Obviously, the debate here is whether or not I take the steps to improve my long iron game to the point of having better trajectory control vs. buying the club that allows me to do that as-is. I have the time to give to work on improvement in my game.

Do most other golfers?

Have I *lost* something with the modern ball in this regard? I am increasingly assessing the sides of these debates, along with the maintenance meld debates, through the lens of options presented to the golfer through an applied use of skill vs. dictum of the condition or equipment.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

MLevesque

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #226 on: March 03, 2018, 08:54:52 AM »

Amen, brother! I've been saying this for years and actually came up with a cool concept for a Golf Channel television series that would combine travel, sight-seeing and food with golf so that people would not only get excited about architecture, but perhaps make plans to visit the areas and courses the show highlights. The name you ask? The Donald Ross Trail - a weekly hour long show featuring three or four courses from a selected area (Southeast MI for example) in which the history of the course/club is discussed, select holes from each course are featured and you share with the viewer places to check out and see outside of the course as well as great places to eat and relax. This concept could easily extend to courses designed by McKenzie, Tillinghast, Colt & Allison, Willie Park, MacDonald, etc. If produced in a similar fashion to say an Anthony Bourdain or an Andrew Zimmern type show, where you have a knowledgeable and entertaining host that keeps the audience engaged, I think you could have something.



I second that motion!  I think an architectural series on the Golf Channel would be fascinating and help introduce the art of golf course design to a larger audience.  I actually had an email exchange with Geoff Shackelford last year about this very topic.  He was of the option that the Golf Channel management would not sign-off this series because it's target audience would be far too small.  Maybe with the recent upswell of interest in classic (golden age and new) golf course design it's time to revisit?
I am Skew!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #227 on: March 03, 2018, 09:33:27 AM »

In the two times you've borrowed my clubs, you mean to tell me you were never at least tempted?



No, I wasn't tempted.


I carried a Ping Eye 2 1-iron as part of my set for 20+ years.  I loved it the same way you love your 2-iron.  I just got to the point where I couldn't hit it anymore.  It's not like I've found something to replace it ... I don't carry any hybrids.  My small set goes from 4-wood to 4-iron, and I often leave out the 4-iron because it's getting to the point where I don't hit it very well, either.  But I can hit a lot of shots with the 4-wood to cover most of the distances in-between.




MLevesque:  dream on, man.  Ratings for that show would be minuscule, sadly.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #228 on: March 03, 2018, 11:55:39 AM »

'I am not as certain as others here that trying to reset it all via one factor (the golf ball) will be so easy to do.  I'm curious to hear Mike Clayton's view on that.  What I see as the biggest differences between Mike's day and today are a) the driver head is so much bigger than everyone just tries to crush it, which no one would even try 30-40 years ago, and b) through a combination of factors, everyone plays straight shots now, instead of curving the ball left or rightThe latter is the biggest loss to the game.'


Tom,

The biggest difference between the professional game now and the mid 1980s is every player drives the ball like Greg Norman - only further. He had a massive and well earned advantage over most of the rest - not Woosnam,Nicklaus,Seve, Lyle, Couples and a few other smashers - because he was such a great driver.
There were the few like Greg who were long and straight. There were guys like Hale Irwin and Graham Marsh who drove beautifully straight and out of the sweet spot the majority of the time.
So many long hitters were wild and gave up the length advantage by driving it out of play too often.
Then there was Seve who was one of the greatest drivers ever. Sure he could be crooked but he moved the ball around to suit winds and hole shapes like no other I ever saw. Anyone who thinks him a bad driver didn't see him play enough.I've long said MacKenzie was designing for him - giving him space to express himself and if he was crooked a chance with a great shot to recover.It's no surprise he was the only man to win at Royal Melbourne,Augusta and St Andrews - although no doubt Tiger and Jack could have won at RM also.
The biggest change to allow that was the size of the head on the driver and it was a disaster for the administration to allow it to get any bigger than The Greatest Big Bertha - which looked ridiculous at the time.
The driver combined with the ProV saw the huge spike in distance.
It's also thrown a whole group of players into the same skill-set pool - making it much harder for the better drivers to break away from the rest. See the cut this week at the NZ Open - seven under par.

Erik,

Tom consults to Royal Melbourne (Presidents Cup 2019) and we (OCCM) consult to Kingston Heath (likely Aust Open in 2020),Lake Karrinyup (an annual co -sanctioned European Tour event) and The Lakes (Aust Open 2018) and I know a lot more than 0000.1% of the members care about how their courses play. Many care about the legacy of MacKenzie (RM,KH and his partner Alex Russell at LK) and the test he set. They abhor formerly long holes being cut down to drives and wedges and yearn for the resetting of something resembling the original test.
And that doesn't mean going back to hitting woods into the long 4s but just not 9 irons and wedges.


I don't particularly care about how America wants to deal with the same things happening to their great championship courses but we in Australia don't even have a seat at the table.
If we did the ball would have been rolled back years ago - in no small way because Australians are not as obsessed with distance as Americans.
It's the same reason we were able to rid ourselves of thousands of guns and you are still arguing about it despite it being a much bigger problem in America than it ever was in Australia.
 


bravo
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #229 on: March 03, 2018, 12:41:01 PM »
So, the two brightest guys in the room drop the mike after challenging our manhood and bringing up gun control. Who needs anything more to change 400 years of tradition?


I'm disappointed that we would trivialize any death by gun violence. Especially when one so recent touched the very heart of golf. 

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #230 on: March 03, 2018, 02:03:21 PM »
A few questions for those in favor of rollback--


If tomorrow golf's governing bodies gave you what you wanted, what would proof of the worthiness of rollback look like? What would be the concrete indications that the game had become superior to the way it is now?


In the pro game (let's take one tournament in particular)...


What would be the winning score at the 2018 Masters?


What would the top-10 finishers look like? What would be the distribution of longer and shorter hitters across the leaderboard?


At what yardage would Augusta National be set up?


What would be the yardages of the four par 3s?


What clubs would players hit on those holes?


What percent of the field would go for 13 and 15 in two? How many eagles would those holes yield during the tournament?


What would be the leading average driving distance for the week?


Take Jordan Spieth as an example of a decent hitter but not exceptionally long. What clubs would he hit into each hole?


Finally, and most importantly, given just how total an influence the pro game has on everyone else, in what specific ways would the viewing experience be superior?


In the amateur game...

At what yardage range would state amateur, mid-amateur and senior amateur events be held?


How many sets of tees would most non-executive courses have?


How far would you personally be hitting your driver? Your 7 iron?


How much less time would rounds at your home course take?


The best player at your course - by how much less would you like him to outdrive you than he does now?


At what age would it make sense for golfers to start losing distance off the tee?


How much money would golf courses save in mowing time and water costs?


How many more people would take up golf?


At the governing body level...


What would the regulations on the ball look like? What would be the maximum allowable ball speed?


If, as some rollback advocates charge, golf's governing bodies have been manipulating distance numbers to make it seem like driving distances have leveled off when in fact they have not, who at the USGA and R&A and PGA Tour would get fired? How many heads would roll?


As sensible as rollback is, surely there are sensible answers to these questions. I personally could be persuaded to be okay with a technology freeze or a slight rollback (but for all - bifurcation should be cryit doun), but only if there were actual, concrete, measurable benefits of it.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #231 on: March 03, 2018, 02:44:07 PM »
All great questions but answers follow from any of clear break points but for both clubs and ball:


Hogan at Merion


Palmer at Cherry Hills


Miller at Oakmont


Tiger at Augusta


I would choose Hogan, but that may be generationally nostalgic.


Ira

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #232 on: March 03, 2018, 02:49:06 PM »
A few questions for those in favor of rollback--


If tomorrow golf's governing bodies gave you what you wanted, what would proof of the worthiness of rollback look like? What would be the concrete indications that the game had become superior to the way it is now?


In the pro game (let's take one tournament in particular)...


What would be the winning score at the 2018 Masters?


What would the top-10 finishers look like? What would be the distribution of longer and shorter hitters across the leaderboard?


At what yardage would Augusta National be set up?


What would be the yardages of the four par 3s?


What clubs would players hit on those holes?


What percent of the field would go for 13 and 15 in two? How many eagles would those holes yield during the tournament?


What would be the leading average driving distance for the week?


Take Jordan Spieth as an example of a decent hitter but not exceptionally long. What clubs would he hit into each hole?


Finally, and most importantly, given just how total an influence the pro game has on everyone else, in what specific ways would the viewing experience be superior?


In the amateur game...

At what yardage range would state amateur, mid-amateur and senior amateur events be held?


How many sets of tees would most non-executive courses have?


How far would you personally be hitting your driver? Your 7 iron?


How much less time would rounds at your home course take?


The best player at your course - by how much less would you like him to outdrive you than he does now?


At what age would it make sense for golfers to start losing distance off the tee?


How much money would golf courses save in mowing time and water costs?


How many more people would take up golf?


At the governing body level...


What would the regulations on the ball look like? What would be the maximum allowable ball speed?


If, as some rollback advocates charge, golf's governing bodies have been manipulating distance numbers to make it seem like driving distances have leveled off when in fact they have not, who at the USGA and R&A and PGA Tour would get fired? How many heads would roll?


As sensible as rollback is, surely there are sensible answers to these questions. I personally could be persuaded to be okay with a technology freeze or a slight rollback (but for all - bifurcation should be cryit doun), but only if there were actual, concrete, measurable benefits of it.


Good questions Tim.


ANGC would be the worst example you could use, because they have adjusted the most and fit the modern game quite well.
Also, they manipulate the scores quite well there, so weather dependant, the scores would be what they always are -6 to -12 or so.


I'd be more curious to see what would happen at a classic US Open , Open Championship or PGA site such as TOC, Pebble, Merion or Shinny.


I will answer one question-there should be no maximum allowable ball speed as innovation of technique and body should be proportionately rewarded-we just need a lower starting point. Long hitters who keep it in play should always have an advantage, and frankly i really don't see Luke Donald gaining much in either scenario.
It's about restoring scale and skill-not about equalization.


as far as State ams and all events, it would epend upon the size of the rollback-but certainly one could use historical data from an earlier era for one's answers. (allowing for improvement of players of course)


These questions are not easily answered and not all would agree-but the current situation is unsustainable.


As far as a technology freeze-we've had that for years supposedly-so how do you legislate that?


I still think i prefer bifurcation-just like other sports..but I remain open to discussion about both.(or of doing nothing)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 02:50:55 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #233 on: March 03, 2018, 03:01:19 PM »




No, I wasn't tempted.





I carried a Ping Eye 2 1-iron as part of my set for 20+ years.  I loved it the same way you love your 2-iron.  I just got to the point where I couldn't hit it anymore.  It's not like I've found something to replace it ... I don't carry any hybrids.  My small set goes from 4-wood to 4-iron, and I often leave out the 4-iron because it's getting to the point where I don't hit it very well, either.  But I can hit a lot of shots with the 4-wood to cover most of the distances in-between.




MLevesque:  dream on, man.  Ratings for that show would be minuscule, sadly.

Tom, Equipment suggestion:  try a 24 deg Ping G10 hybrid, look on ebay
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Eric LeFante

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #234 on: March 03, 2018, 04:43:26 PM »
Tim,


Augusta has been lengthened by 5-7% over the past 30 years. If you rollback the ball 10% and play from the current back tees, I think players will hit the same clubs Jack did in the 86 Masters. He hit 3 and 4 iron into 13 and 15 and 5 iron on 16 and 18. Sergio hit 8 iron on 15 and PW on 18 last year. I personally would enjoy watching players play the golf course the way it was designed to be played. I loved watching Faldo hit 2 iron from a sidehill lie on 13 in 96. That was such a difficult shot and there was a true risk/reward calculation. What risk is there hitting a 6-8 iron into that green? I understand the average fan may not care about that.


What a 10% rollback would do is allow tournaments to slow the greens down a little, maybe to 1986 speed. Greens have gotten way too fast in order to defend par because players are hitting shorter clubs into greens than they used to. This is why scoring has not come down over the years. Ball striking has become easier, putting has become harder. To me, greens that run at 12-14 is what really slows the game down because every lag putt rolls out to 4 feet, you almost never have a tap in, and you have more three putts. If tournament greens ran at 10-11, I think play would be faster, members at home would not demand greens that run at 12, and maintenance cost would come down a little.


« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 09:55:56 AM by Eric LeFante »

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #235 on: March 03, 2018, 05:13:24 PM »

'So, the two brightest guys in the room drop the mike after challenging our manhood and bringing up gun control. Who needs anything more to change 400 years of tradition?I'm disappointed that we would trivialize any death by gun violence. Especially when one so recent touched the very heart of golf.'


John,

I'm not sure if you have been to Australia or how much you know about us - but if you have and you do it would perhaps be clearer there is an analogy here. We had one massacre - Port Arthur 1996 35 killed with an AR-15 -  and the vast majority of the country saw it as a tragic outrage and the government - a conservative government - determined to do something to try and ensure it didn't happen again. And it hasn't
There was some protest from rural parts of the country but the majority could see the sense in the governments position and the 'gun buy-back' was legislated and done in months.

People understood what the overall good was - and they saw the gun violence road America was on and didn't want anything to do with it.

It seems to me the same thing is happening with the golf ball - not that in any way am I equating the importance of the gun debate to rolling back the ball. One is clearly much more important.
Americans against a ball roll-back seem to me to be solely concerned with what they are going to lose personally. They don't care a dot about what wise men without agenda like Nicklaus,Weiskopf,Price,Doak and many others think about the direction the game should go in and what's best for it in the long-term.
The manufacturing lobby are facing the same task as the NRA in defending their position and arguing against anything that takes even a few yards from golfers - or some guns from the populace.


Australian's are less concerned with losing yardage because they better understand the game is more than just about them. I suspect Adam Lawrence might say something similar about British golfers.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2018, 05:21:41 PM by Mike_Clayton »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #236 on: March 03, 2018, 06:48:21 PM »
Sadly my daughter lived in Australia for 7 years as a practicing lawyer and was an acquaintance of Katrina Dawson. The attack happened on one of the few days my daughter did not stop for coffee in the very same shop the tragedy occurred. Now she lives in London which I feel is safer but not as safe as the United States. So yea, I know a bit.

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #237 on: March 03, 2018, 06:53:36 PM »
John,


I have played golf with her father and know him well. So sad. A former Captain of the R&A.


I'm not sure the statistics of gun deaths in America v England and Australia bear out your assertion America is 'safer'
It's clearly not safer for kids going to school.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #238 on: March 03, 2018, 07:06:39 PM »
Just to note: I have only fired a gun once in my life at it was to shoot skeet between rounds at Streamsong. While I may shoot a gun again it will never be between rounds of a golf tournament again.




Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #239 on: March 04, 2018, 05:43:59 AM »
Hogan at Merion
I would choose Hogan, but that may be generationally nostalgic.


Ira

I look forward to your pending recovery from a head-on collision from a bus accident and the trackman statistics from your 36th hole of the day.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mike Sweeney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #240 on: March 04, 2018, 06:07:45 AM »

I don't particularly care about how America wants to deal with the same things happening to their great championship courses but we in Australia don't even have a seat at the table.
If we did the ball would have been rolled back years ago - in no small way because Australians are not as obsessed with distance as Americans.
It's the same reason we were able to rid ourselves of thousands of guns and you are still arguing about it despite it being a much bigger problem in America than it ever was in Australia.



Mike Clayton,

I am genuinely asking, why do you care what the R&A thinks? I am assuming that the "table" is a reference to the USGA and R&A. Australia is actually the perfect place to start the process. What do you have to lose, a Major Tournament? You are the perfect size in that that you are big enough for the ball manufacturers would build to your new specs. Yet small enough that the politics might stay away, at least for awhile.

Please don't read this as the USA/New Yorker with internet tough talk. It actually makes sense that Oz and New Zealand would set the example. We could move up a set of tees here in the USA and play "Australian Rules Golf" with your new ball and maybe club specs. I like niche topics, why else would I be on GCA.com !!

PS - I have never been to Oz, but I am probably one of the few to write about "British Royal Marines and convicts in a penal colony in New South Wales (Australia), in the 1780s" :) - https://medium.com/@carousel51/roya-mahboob-our-country-s-good-a-cultural-exchange-at-trevor-day-school-in-nyc-86b6a6b9131e
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #241 on: March 04, 2018, 07:34:49 AM »

I don't particularly care about how America wants to deal with the same things happening to their great championship courses but we in Australia don't even have a seat at the table.
If we did the ball would have been rolled back years ago - in no small way because Australians are not as obsessed with distance as Americans.
It's the same reason we were able to rid ourselves of thousands of guns and you are still arguing about it despite it being a much bigger problem in America than it ever was in Australia.



Mike Clayton,

I am genuinely asking, why do you care what the R&A thinks? I am assuming that the "table" is a reference to the USGA and R&A. Australia is actually the perfect place to start the process. What do you have to lose, a Major Tournament? You are the perfect size in that that you are big enough for the ball manufacturers would build to your new specs. Yet small enough that the politics might stay away, at least for awhile.

Please don't read this as the USA/New Yorker with internet tough talk. It actually makes sense that Oz and New Zealand would set the example. We could move up a set of tees here in the USA and play "Australian Rules Golf" with your new ball and maybe club specs. I like niche topics, why else would I be on GCA.com !!

PS - I have never been to Oz, but I am probably one of the few to write about "British Royal Marines and convicts in a penal colony in New South Wales (Australia), in the 1780s" :) - https://medium.com/@carousel51/roya-mahboob-our-country-s-good-a-cultural-exchange-at-trevor-day-school-in-nyc-86b6a6b9131e


I would think Mike Clayton cares about what the R&A thinks as they are in fact the ruling authority of golf in Australia. He might not agree with all the decision making but the idea that they would just develop their own ball and think there would be no political ramifications is sticking your head in the sand. Finally I am at a loss what the reference about the British Royal Marines and convicts in a penal colony in New South Wales or the ensuing link has to do with the topic at hand.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2018, 08:15:19 AM by Tim Martin »

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #242 on: March 04, 2018, 11:02:38 AM »
Tim,


Augusta has been lengthened by 5-7% over the past 30 years. If you rollback the ball 10% and play from the current back tees, I think players will hit the same clubs Jack did in the 86 Masters. He hit 3 and 4 iron into 13 and 15 and 5 iron on 16 and 18. Sergio hit 8 iron on 15 and PW on 18 last year. I personally would enjoy watching players play the golf course the way it was designed to be played. I loved watching Faldo hit 2 iron from a sidehill lie on 13 in 96. That was such a difficult shot and there was a true risk/reward calculation. What risk is there hitting a 6-8 iron into that green? I understand the average fan may not care about that.


What a 10% rollback would do is allow tournaments to slow the greens down a little, maybe to 1986 speed. Greens have gotten way too fast in order to defend par because players are hitting shorter clubs into greens than they used to. This is why scoring has not come down over the years. Ball striking has become easier, putting has become harder. To me, greens that run at 12-14 is what really slows the game down because every lag putt rolls out to 4 feet, you almost never have a tap in, and you have more three putts. If tournament greens ran at 10-11, I think play would be faster, members at home would not demand greens that run at 12, and maintenance cost would come down a little.
Eric--


What do you mean "the way it was designed to be played?" By whom? In what year? Alister Mackenzie in 1934? Is there any golf course that has received more adjustments in the way it is designed than ANGC has?


ANGC seems to be the perfect example of a topic that I think is very taboo in our circles, but at the risk of ridicule I'll broach it here:


What if the original design of a particular golf course is flawed? What if X classic course, designed in 1918, could be better now if certain changes were made, either to the routing, shaping, maintenance, vegetation, etc.? Given better resources and information than their forebears had, is it universally inherently preferable to restore X course's flawed former self, or is it preferable to instead preserve the original intent and style of X's beloved original architect while addressing the course's baked-in flaws?


What I'm getting at here is: what makes it the case that the way Nicklaus played 13 and 15 in '86 was undoubtedly superior to the way Sergio and Phil and Bubba have played those and other holes in the modern day?


You speak of the pleasure of Faldo's 2-iron in 1996 and praise Nicklaus' use of long irons in 1986. But under 1986's technological conditions, we would never have Mickelson's superhuman 6 iron from the pine straw and trees to 13 green in 2010. Are you prepared to argue that that shot - one of the most exciting single shots hit on a golf course on TV in my lifetime (I was born in 1989) shouldn't have been possible?


Yes, Sergio hit 8 iron into 15 (didn't Tiger hit PW into 15 the year after you reveled in Faldo's 2 iron?), but in order to do so he had to hit a long, straight tee shot under immense pressure. Might you be taking the greatness of the preceding shot for granted?


Bubba Watson's shot on 10 in the playoff in 2012 is one of the greatest golf shots ever hit. But to set that shot up, he had to hit a poor tee shot. If the modern driver and ball are such a no-brainer combination for long and straight tee shots, it is still clear that there is tremendous skill involved in hitting a fairway when the chips are down.


What about the way Angel Cabrera played the 72nd hole, in the rain, just having seen Adam Scott hole the presumptive winning putt, in 2013? It looks like he hit 7 or 8 iron up the hill. I think the knee-jerk reaction is to use that as an example of why the golf ball goes too far, but I think doing so requires a refusal to acknowledge the difficulty of hitting as great a tee shot as Cabrera hit. I think that's a selective approach to the issue.


If you are asserting is that the modern golf ball has decreased the potential for incredible shots and moments in professional golf, I would vehemently disagree, with these and many more shots as evidence.


Now, I think part of the rollbacker's reply might go something like, "But the golf ball has made it so pros don't hit many long irons anymore, and that's not good. And I don't necessarily disagree, which is why I put together my little matrix of clubs hit over the course of a round in my response to Tom Doak in post #104. That matrix laid a framework for what seemed like a balanced round of golf in terms of full shot demands, and it arrived at a course yardage of 7,355 yards. That makes me wonder whether the assertion that all the pros are hitting nothing but short irons and wedges is somewhat overstated. It would be good to know whether this was true - rather than just rely on anecdotal "well in yesteryear..." reminiscences. Again, rolling back the golf ball would be a big deal if enacted; we need to err on the side of doing too much due diligence, not too little. I think we've done much too little, especially since, as available data shows, equipment has generally plateaued.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #243 on: March 04, 2018, 11:42:42 AM »

Now, I think part of the rollbacker's reply might go something like, "But the golf ball has made it so pros don't hit many long irons anymore, and that's not good. And I don't necessarily disagree, which is why I put together my little matrix of clubs hit over the course of a round in my response to Tom Doak in post #104. That matrix laid a framework for what seemed like a balanced round of golf in terms of full shot demands, and it arrived at a course yardage of 7,355 yards. That makes me wonder whether the assertion that all the pros are hitting nothing but short irons and wedges is somewhat overstated. It would be good to know whether this was true - rather than just rely on anecdotal "well in yesteryear..." reminiscences.


So is your assertion that golf courses should just lengthen to 7,355 yards or so, with four longish par-3 holes at precise yardages, and there will be no problem?  Design for big tournament courses has been going that way for a while now.  TPC's are the result.


There's a crap-ton of data available on this today:  every shot hit on Tour the past 10 years or so has been recorded on ShotLink.  Of course, with that much data, you and I can both pretty much find whatever we want to find. 


I look at all the drives that are 320 or 340 yards and think, nobody did that back in the day, but I'm talking 20-30 years back ... I watched Adam Scott hit 8-iron, 9-iron and wedge to the last three holes at Cape Kidnappers in the Kiwi Challenge more than 10 years ago now.  [Those three holes measure 500, 480 and 480 yards, all of them uphill, with about a 5-mph tail wind, so he was driving it right around 340.  Couldn't hole a putt though, and finished last of four.  The other three guys all drove it 300-325.] 

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #244 on: March 04, 2018, 12:39:01 PM »
Tim,

There will always be great shots regardless of equipment. though the range of them might only be made possible by modern equipment (DJ's near par 4 ace in Hawaii)
Not sure I can follow the logic of modern distance making certain great shots possible.




By that logic Gene Sarazen wouldn't have had the "opportunity" to have hit a 4 wood for his double eagle at 15-and instead would've been approaching with a 5 iron...


Sure Phil's shot was fantastic theatre for the setting and timing, but even he admitted the shot wasn't that hard.
It was a 6 iron off a clean lie in pine straw with an uninhibited swing (though TV mad the window look small and the trees closer than they were to his swing.
Make no mistake, it was incredible and under the circumsatnces, exponentially incredible.


But it would've even more(or just as ) exciting had it been a 3 or 4 iron-and Phil still would've attempted it.


As far as long irons being rarely used for approaches , there could be a case that more are used, except that they off par 4 tees and into par 5's.
One could also argue modern equipment has reduced the need to lay up on par 5's, but 3 shot holes IMHO are an important part of great golf courses.


I will say the course in Mexico this week at altitude is good entertainment-at least different-and that is as good of a case as any for no rollback and no course bastardization-just let them have at it.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #245 on: March 04, 2018, 01:34:52 PM »

So is your assertion that golf courses should just lengthen to 7,355 yards or so, with four longish par-3 holes at precise yardages, and there will be no problem?  Design for big tournament courses has been going that way for a while now.  TPC's are the result.


There's a crap-ton of data available on this today:  every shot hit on Tour the past 10 years or so has been recorded on ShotLink.  Of course, with that much data, you and I can both pretty much find whatever we want to find. 


I look at all the drives that are 320 or 340 yards and think, nobody did that back in the day, but I'm talking 20-30 years back ... I watched Adam Scott hit 8-iron, 9-iron and wedge to the last three holes at Cape Kidnappers in the Kiwi Challenge more than 10 years ago now.  [Those three holes measure 500, 480 and 480 yards, all of them uphill, with about a 5-mph tail wind, so he was driving it right around 340.  Couldn't hole a putt though, and finished last of four.  The other three guys all drove it 300-325.]


Re: the 7,355 figure, I don't want that to become a precise standard for courses, but I think it's an instructive ballpark estimate for how long pro courses should be. Given that as a median-type number, and given your reluctance to get specific about the terms of what you called "restor[ing] some of the challenge for elite players, without changing every course in the world on their behalf" I think we should build in some tolerance for the type of course distances we see as acceptable. The PGA Tour currently plays courses that vary from 6,800ish yards up to 7,500 ish yards. This seems to be a good range around my admittedly ballpark 7,355 number, and it suggests that they are still hitting plenty of longer clubs in addition to the shorter ones.


Re: the data, that is a good point. There are a lot of data points that can be used in this debate. I'm sure I'm guilty of citing certain trends that support my argument. But if the rollback argument is going to hinge significantly on what clubs players used to hit into certain holes (as Eric L. and others cite), then we should use the distribution of clubs they hit into the holes they play now as a basis for determining the true urgency of rollback, it sounds like we should seek that data, and it sounds like we don't have that. I'd certainly like to see it.


Re: your Adam Scott anecdote, it sounds like a great piece of support for the contention that we are actually making too big a deal about distance because the game will always be difficult - and the best will always separate themselves from the rest - on and around the greens.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #246 on: March 04, 2018, 02:03:09 PM »
Tim,


The sky fell when Gary Woodland showed up at Dismal River Red and shot 59 while the owner played on his fiddle like it was a good thing. Now even the reviewers can't get enough of it. But damn those pictures are pretty.


http://www.golfcoursegurus.com/reviews/dismal-river-golf-club-red/


Just to be clear. I don't care what Gary Woodland or any other golfer claims that he shot during a casual round of golf. I do care when when it is mistaken as a course record. Once bifurcation takes hold the entire world of golf accomplishments, including holes in one, will become that more muddled. The worst part of golf, the after round recap, may make the game not worth playing.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #247 on: March 04, 2018, 02:17:32 PM »
... 3 shot holes IMHO are an important part of great golf courses.
+1
Well said Jeff.
Atb

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #248 on: March 04, 2018, 02:24:39 PM »
... 3 shot holes IMHO are an important part of great golf courses.
+1
Well said Jeff.
Atb

I love par 5's, but not because they are 3 shots. My most thrilling shots I have taken are trying to get home in 2 and put for that eagle. Connecting with your fairway wood and booming it onto the green IMO is the most exciting shot in golf.  Like a triple in baseball, doesn't happen often and usually exciting.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #249 on: March 04, 2018, 03:14:41 PM »
Mike Clayton,

'I am genuinely asking, why do you care what the R&A thinks? I am assuming that the "table" is a reference to the USGA and R&A. Australia is actually the perfect place to start the process. What do you have to lose, a Major Tournament? You are the perfect size in that that you are big enough for the ball manufacturers would build to your new specs. Yet small enough that the politics might stay away, at least for awhile.'


Yes - the 'table' is USGA and R&A. Australia does have a seat at the table - the Chairman of Golf Aust - and I know he is banging away behind the scenes to get something done.
I care what the R&A think because they run golf in Australia - in terms of making the rules.
The problem is no one makes golf balls in Australia any more so unless someone can convince Titleist to make one for us it's not happening!

But I like the idea of a revised ball tournament in Australia - it'd be a good place to start.


Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back