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Cal Seifert

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #175 on: March 01, 2018, 06:03:36 PM »
Just make 'em play with 8 clubs and a 275cc driver.  Would be more fun and would emphasize playing styles.  Would never happen, I know.

JESII

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #176 on: March 01, 2018, 06:09:33 PM »
Jeff, how are they supposed to regulate stupid?

Tom_Doak

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #177 on: March 01, 2018, 06:16:56 PM »
What most American's don't realise, or certainly don't think about now, is the game was bifurcated for years with big and small balls.
We - outside of US,Canada,Mexico and I assume Sth America -  all started playing the small ball and when Nicklaus,Palmer and Player came down they all took up the chance to drive 20 yards further.
Then, it became apparent the 1.68 inch ball would become mandatory is professional events. The 1974 Open Championship was the first to mandate the big ball.
Then some players in Australian events started to use the big ball - giving up the distance advantage for the bigger picture which was if they were going to play overseas they would have to learn to play the big one.
For a time amateur events had players using a mix of balls and when I won the 1978 Australian Am I was the only one using the big ball.
I think it was compulsory on the Australian and European Tours by then.
Amateurs played both until 1983 when the small ball was finally extinct. - and in theory - every amateur in the country - and in Britain and Europe - gave up the kind of yardage they would give up now if the ball was rolled back.
Women maybe lost a few yards but the better the player the more they lost.
It was no big deal.No one game up golf because they lost a few yards. They all adapted. Life went on and it still will if the same thing America forced on the rest of the world happened to American golfers.
When Australia had a mass shooting two decades ago the Prime Minister took away a lot of guns. We have not had one since and people - despite some protest - saw it as reasonable and sensible.
America seems different - Don't take our guns and don't take our 30 yards.
And believe me changing to a ball which goes a little shorter will be a lot easier than changing to a different sized ball.


Thank you for this post!  I've tried to make the same argument many times [even in this very thread] and it is just ignored by guys who fear we are going to take away their manhood.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #178 on: March 01, 2018, 06:27:53 PM »
Mike - did the large ball have benefits over the small ball? Control perhaps? Sincere question as I don’t know.




Was Australia founded as a country with the right to bear arms as a critical right afforded to every citizen? Also a sincere question.



Jim,
We had no equivalent of the 2nd amendment and guns were never a part of our society as they are in America.
The only people I knew who owned guns were farmers. No one - aside from the obvious criminals who tended to use them on each other - in the cities owned guns or ever though it necessary as part of protecting themselves. Nor is hunting a particularly popular sport.
Australians generally look on in utter astonishment at what happens in America.





Some thought the big ball was probably easier to chip and putt with but I'm not sure on either count.
We all grew up playing surlyn balls - there were no balata balls here until the last 1970s when Titleist set up an agency - and they were very hard to spin around the greens. Balata made it much easier.
It was much more difficult in the wind - and there is a lot more wind as a general rule in Australia and Britain than in America. And aside from the Low Traj Titleist - a great ball - all the 1.68' ball was made more for the aerial game and was very hard to play with in the wind. It's way easier now obviously - the 1.68' ball in the wind probably plays as the 1.62' did 40 years ago.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #179 on: March 01, 2018, 06:39:44 PM »

It was no big deal.No one gave up golf because they lost a few yards.
I'm struggling to understand how a 20% rollback (over 60 yards for the Dustin Johnsons of the world, over 50 yards from my tee shots) and "a few yards" are equivalent. (Edit: I'm not at all saying that you said they were equivalent, that's my word, but people aren't talking about dialing the ball back "a few yards." That wouldn't even be worth the effort. They're talking about 20% or so. One poster here even said 30% once, IIRC.)

Erik,


20% is clearly too much - but make it 10% and how much do they drag back in a decade and we are back where we started? I'm a believer in MacKenzie's proposition that, 'There is no limit to science'  Its proved to be remarkably prescient on many levels.


The 1.62' to 1.68 was generally considered to be about 20-25 yards for pros. For me that's 'a few yards' - and probably about 10% Guys who drove it 270 maybe went back to 250. My guess is the average player who drove it 210 barely noticed.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2018, 06:45:01 PM by Mike_Clayton »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #180 on: March 01, 2018, 06:57:02 PM »
20% is clearly too much - but make it 10% and how much do they drag back in a decade and we are back where we started? I'm a believer in MacKenzie's proposition that, 'There is no limit to science'  Its proved to be remarkably prescient on many levels.
It's not just about science. The golf ball is highly regulated (as is the driver).

Given enough incentive, I'm sure that in one year Titleist or Bridgestone or Callaway could make a golf ball and/or driver combo that Dustin Johnson could hit an average of 375 yards… because it's not just about the limits of science, but the limits of the game's regulations.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

BCowan

Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #181 on: March 01, 2018, 06:58:41 PM »

Mike_Clayton

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #182 on: March 01, 2018, 07:04:29 PM »
Eric,


It was just as highly regulated in the 1980s and the rules never changed as science sent the ball 30-40 yards further at the top end.


Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #183 on: March 01, 2018, 09:04:52 PM »
It was just as highly regulated in the 1980s and the rules never changed as science sent the ball 30-40 yards further at the top end.
Those balls weren’t at the top end of the regulations.

These are. Your quotes about “science” are meaningless.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mike_Clayton

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #184 on: March 02, 2018, 02:02:26 AM »

Erik,

Why are they meaningless? MacKenzie was right was he not when he said there was no limit to it?




Either way we are never going to agree on this so I'm not sure why either of us bother.

Jason Topp

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #185 on: March 02, 2018, 09:41:48 AM »

Jason, five of the top 10 is interesting, but it's less compelling if 5 of the top 10 becomes 8 of the top 50, know what I mean? It's also less compelling if one of the courses that lengthened went from 6300 yards to 6550. Signifiant increase? Yes. But also likely well overdue, as 6300 yards was fairly short (for lower handicappers) in the 1960s. I'm not saying you or anyone else is at all wrong… I'm just saying I've yet to see any actual data on this beyond more than just a few small sets.

. . . .

I teach some women who will never carry the ball 160+ yards. Golf is already too difficult for them. Seniors. Children. Making the game MORE difficult hardly seems like the way to grow the game.




Erik:


I am enjoying the discussion.


As to lengthening of courses in my area - they fall into two categories.  Among the top 10, the courses that seek to host top level competitive events (Hazeltine and Windsong) have added back tee yardage to get over 7500 yards.  The others are classic courses that seek to remain appropriate for state level events and have gone more from 6700 to around 7,000.  The extra length might not be so bad on these courses but in many cases I believe the quality of the golf holes has declined.  The 6300 yard private clubs are not considered top level clubs and either charge bargain prices and are struggling for members or have been turned into housing (Minnetonka CC and Hillcrest). 

The lengthening phenomenon is not limited to top-tier clubs, others have added as well (Mendakota, Bunker Hills, Olympic Hills, Medina, Rush Creek -are all examples that have stretched to 7,000 or more).



As to the women, seniors or children who carry it 160 or less, I do not believe that a 20% reduction would hardly be noticed for a couple of reasons.  First, in terms of absolute yards such players are going to lose less distance.


 Second, and this is more important, such players are extremely unlikely to be hitting the ball with launch conditions that are optimized in the first place.  It is likely that a reduced distance ball might fly just as far for them as it does now.  Historical driving distance data for the "average" player supports this notion.  One of the Golf magazines ran an article several years ago that showed that at the same time professional driving distance increased by nearly 20%, average driving distance had not changed much at all  - maybe a yard or two.  If a ball rollback reversed those results, you would have little impact on those players. 


I suppose this could be tested by having one of your students play with a range ball.  I suspect they would notice little increase in the difficulty of the game. 
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 09:48:56 AM by Jason Topp »

Jeff Schley

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #186 on: March 02, 2018, 09:53:10 AM »


 Second, and this is more important, such players are extremely unlikely to be hitting the ball with launch conditions that are optimized in the first place.  It is likely that a reduced distance ball might fly just as far for them as it does now.  Historical driving distance data for the "average" player supports this notion.  One of the Golf magazines ran an article several years ago that showed that at the same time professional driving distance increased by nearly 20%, average driving distance had not changed much at all  - maybe a yard or two.  If a ball rollback reversed those results, you would have little impact on those players. 



You are saying that the average driving distance on the PGA has only increased by a yard or two?   

Or are you saying for the "average" amateur golfers?
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #187 on: March 02, 2018, 09:56:33 AM »


 Second, and this is more important, such players are extremely unlikely to be hitting the ball with launch conditions that are optimized in the first place.  It is likely that a reduced distance ball might fly just as far for them as it does now.  Historical driving distance data for the "average" player supports this notion.  One of the Golf magazines ran an article several years ago that showed that at the same time professional driving distance increased by nearly 20%, average driving distance had not changed much at all  - maybe a yard or two.  If a ball rollback reversed those results, you would have little impact on those players. 



You are saying that the average driving distance on the PGA has only increased by a yard or two?   

Or are you saying for the "average" amateur golfers?


Amateur golfers.  Here is a link to a 2016 USGA study that provides a ton of data on the issue.  It concludes the number is higher.  Figure 14 on page 20 gives driver distance over time over different handicap groups.  The professional distances that are comparable are on page 3. 


This study was used to support the position that no action was needed at the time so many of the professional charts start at 2003 which is after the proV1 and similar balls took over.


http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Equipment/2016%20Distance%20Report.pdf
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 10:05:46 AM by Jason Topp »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #188 on: March 02, 2018, 10:23:30 AM »
Why are they meaningless? MacKenzie was right was he not when he said there was no limit to it?
Because it's not only a matter of science. Science may be "limitless" (within reason - we've yet to crack certain things, and may never), but the rules apply. So the "science is limitless" type quotes are meaningless.

Jason, 160 to 128 is a noticeable distance, and the women in this category that I teach do have as good a launch as they can… They simply lack the swing speed to get much out of the ball. A reduced flight ball will rob them of a great deal of distance. Just like everyone else. (And not all range balls are limited flight, btw.)

Figure 14 shows about a 10+ yard increase in every handicap range, doesn't it? Every trend line is going up. Despite the fact that amateurs have been using "distance balls" for quite some time, what's changes is the availability of longer, lighter, larger drivers. Better understanding of launch conditions. Etc.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #189 on: March 02, 2018, 10:38:37 AM »
Jason,

Good report and thanks for posting. A couple observations:

1. The Web.com guys are outdriving the PGA tour guys, gotta have some beasts who just swing hard and don't have a well rounded game.
2. For amateurs the largest overall distance increase from 1996 to 2015 has been observed for the highest handicap golfers (14 yards) with the increase observed for both the <6 and 6-12 categories being 12 yards and the 13-20 handicap category averaging 10 yards longer in 2016 than in 1996.
3. The distance gains BEFORE the Pro V1 era are not available and we have done our own tabulations from the 1980 PGA tour stats (earliest available) til now and the results are huge.  Thus I'm saying the USGA didn't step in soon enough and by the time they started to limit innovation it was too late.

I'm not saying roll back the ball for amateurs, only pros (bifurcation).
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Mike Bowen

Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #190 on: March 02, 2018, 10:42:21 AM »
Erik,


I think you missed my point about the WGC.  Whether it's 20 years or 30 years, it doesn't really matter, the distance people hit the ball will continue to increase.  At no point in history has this ever not been true.  Why would modern times be any different.  The question becomes is that a problem?  I think most would agree that eventually this would become a problem.  Many on hear believe we have already reached that point. 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #191 on: March 02, 2018, 10:52:35 AM »

Mike,


Once again, a problem for who?


For most ams, getting more distance out of drivers doesn't really translate into wanting longer courses, it translates into wanting to hit shorter approach shots.  Thus, no problem, unless you happen to believe in some Victorian concept of punishing golfers by making the game harder. (Some do!)  For most, its hard enough, and historically, handicaps have never come down despite distance gains, etc. 


Making golf somewhat playable has always been the goal of the equipment industry.  It just so happens the stronger players happen to benefit most.  Even their scores have only reduced a few strokes with all that new found distance.


So, we agree on bifurcation.  Or, we just realize that we have enough tournament courses at 7250 plus, and start focusing on average players for all other courses where the biggest problem is traditional tee sets don't match the actual driving distances of typical ams, mostly being too long, based on assumptions made in the last half of the last century by architects, some of which are proving false with the limited data available.


Specifically, many of us set tees for 283/250/225/200/175, and 150 yard tee shots, or similar and the mid and forward tees ought to be shorter.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #192 on: March 02, 2018, 11:06:20 AM »
What most American's don't realise, or certainly don't think about now, is the game was bifurcated for years with big and small balls.
We - outside of US,Canada,Mexico and I assume Sth America -  all started playing the small ball and when Nicklaus,Palmer and Player came down they all took up the chance to drive 20 yards further.
Then, it became apparent the 1.68 inch ball would become mandatory is professional events. The 1974 Open Championship was the first to mandate the big ball.
Then some players in Australian events started to use the big ball - giving up the distance advantage for the bigger picture which was if they were going to play overseas they would have to learn to play the big one.
For a time amateur events had players using a mix of balls and when I won the 1978 Australian Am I was the only one using the big ball.
I think it was compulsory on the Australian and European Tours by then.
Amateurs played both until 1983 when the small ball was finally extinct. - and in theory - every amateur in the country - and in Britain and Europe - gave up the kind of yardage they would give up now if the ball was rolled back.
Women maybe lost a few yards but the better the player the more they lost.
It was no big deal.No one game up golf because they lost a few yards. They all adapted. Life went on and it still will if the same thing America forced on the rest of the world happened to American golfers.
When Australia had a mass shooting two decades ago the Prime Minister took away a lot of guns. We have not had one since and people - despite some protest - saw it as reasonable and sensible.
America seems different - Don't take our guns and don't take our 30 yards.
And believe me changing to a ball which goes a little shorter will be a lot easier than changing to a different sized ball.


Thank you for this post!  I've tried to make the same argument many times [even in this very thread] and it is just ignored by guys who fear we are going to take away their manhood.


+1


The game is bifurcated daily with different tees.
years ago with 2 size balls.
now with grooves.


and Erik you bring up a good point about 10000 people attempting to qualify for the US Open-they will all play the "new" ball-some for a week or a month.
Some who have no shot  will always play the new ball-the same as I see 10 handicappers playing blades.
No different than adjusting to altitude or as John says because they want to play the same ball as their elite friends.


It's coming-and this is going to be like watching NYC the day after the last Presidential election :)


« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 11:28:59 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #193 on: March 02, 2018, 11:13:09 AM »


I can guarantee you that if you increased your sample size you'd see it's a lot more common than you think.

You can't possibly know what I think because I've never shared an actual number.




Of course I know what you think on that, you've cited as your evidence on MULTIPLE occasions that no course in Erie PA has been lengthened and therefore we are all exaggerating the number of courses lengthened.
and all this time I've been thinking that St. Andrews was the home of golf.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 11:44:49 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #194 on: March 02, 2018, 12:01:12 PM »
What I don't understand is why the two courses where I am a member that host professional tournaments don't make the pros play from the tips. Maybe over the course of four days each hole is tipped out once but never every hole on one single day. It makes me think that courses are lengthened more for variety than anything else.


This thread has made me come to realize that if you take any single number alone it speaks an undeniable truth, get them in a group and its nothing but a pack of lies.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #195 on: March 02, 2018, 01:12:31 PM »
What I don't understand is why the two courses where I am a member that host professional tournaments don't make the pros play from the tips. Maybe over the course of four days each hole is tipped out once but never every hole on one single day.


Bingo...happens in US Open as well.

Tim Gavrich

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Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #196 on: March 02, 2018, 02:34:07 PM »
I have no idea why people who visit this site who, presumably, have an interest in golf architecture, think the status quo with the ball is just fine.

The effect of the ball on golf courses is as profound as it is obvious. It has changed the nature of the game played by good golfers. And not for the better.

Are you ok with pros and good ams rarely having to hit a middle or long iron into a par 4? Are you ok with pros/good ams regularly hitting lofted 2nd shots to par 5's?

We can do the math together. A 7400 yard course today, given how far the 30th longest player hits his driver, plays like a 6400 yard course in 1975 or thereabouts. A 7400 course today is, on an apples to apples basis, extremely short by any historical measure.     

(Spare us the talk about scoring averages. It is child's play to to make a course resistant to scoring, and the USGA, the Masters, the PGA and sponsors of tour events know all the tricks. Heck, everyone knows all the tricks.)

Luke Donald said something interesting the other day. Looking at the strokes he loses off the tee (using Broadie's numbers), he said he can't possibly gain enough strokes in other phases of the game to make up the difference. When there are typically 30 or more players in an event averaging more than 300 yards from the tee, Donald is beaten before he take his clubs out of the trunk. Do we really want a modern day version of a Paul Runyan, an Art Wall or a Gene Littler or a Dean Beaman or even a Nick Faldo to be, essentially, unable to compete, even when they have their A games? That is what Donald has concluded. Is that a good thing?

But those are pros. They are the 1% at the top of the heap, you say. Which is obviously true, but it is also obviously true that they define the game for everyone, like it or not. Every Sunday afternoon on TV they model what the game should be about and how golf courses ought to play.

Yes, a rollback of the ball will make the game harder for hackers like us. At the end of the day, hopefully we will be playing with a ball not unlike the one we played with in the mid-1990's. Or pick your own rollback date. There will be a hue and cry. But note - whatever date you pick it will be a date in time when the game was more popular and growing faster than it is today.

To paraphrase Robert Hunter, what people like about golf is that it is hard.   

Bob   



Bob--


While reading through the threeish new pages on this thread since my last post, this one has stuck with me, and I'd like to respond to a few points if I may.


1. Re: the pro game defining golf for the rest of us, do you take this as an eternal fact? I ask because I think that influence is eroding somewhat, especially as courses like Sweetens Cove and short courses become more celebrated. I think more golfers than ever are waking up to the idea that worthwhile golf does not always have to look like the stereotypical PGA Tour course. Another reason for this: PGA Tour events seem to be visiting more architecturally sophisticated courses than they used to, and that architectural sophistication is discussed on-air more than it used to be. Old White represented an exciting development along these lines, and when the Tour visits Trinity Forest in a couple months, it will be another step toward a greater embrace of different styles of course on the most influential stage.


Also, to what extent do you feel that club developers and green committees are responsible for their choices regarding what changes they make to their courses? Given the increased focus on playability at many public and municipal courses, why are golf's governing bodies solely obligated to save unwise and perhaps insecure developers and memberships from their own bad decisions? I suppose rolling back the golf ball might mitigate some misguided course changes, but as long as people have more money than sense, they will spend it both wisely and unwisely. I take this as a pretty universal truth, personally.


2. Re: your question about whether we're "ok with pros and good ams rarely having to hit a middle or long iron into a par 4 [and]...regularly hitting lofted 2nd shots to par 5s" -- I personally feel inclined to leave par out of it and go back to the matrix of full shot distribution I set up back a few pages in the thread. If a course provides an adequate test of all of a players clubs, I'm not inclined to get hung up on where those shots are hit. My suspicion is that the vast majority of the pros are hitting more mid- and long-irons than is being assumed. Also, I just find basing the rollback argument off what Dustin Johnson does to be misguided. He's one of the longest hitters in the world. By definition, the longest hitters in the world are always going to hit shorter clubs than the shorter hitters.


3. Re: Luke Donald, I looked back at his stats, and it's fairly easy to see why he's fallen a long way since his brief spell as #1 in the world. Back when he was at his peak, he was able to overcome his short driving distance by hitting a good amount of fairways. In 2011, he was a serviceable 57th on Tour in Fairway %. The last handful of years, in addition to being one of the shortest hitters, he's also been one of the crookedest off the tee. He is 197th so far this year, and was 147th last year. I imagine that combination is almost impossible to overcome as a PGA Tour pro.


4. I see the correlation of the 1990s and the growth of golf, but would you suggest causation there as well? Was the inferior equipment key to the growth of the game at that time? Not meaning to be snarky here; if there's evidence of causation, it would probably make me think a little differently about this issue.


--Tim
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Mike Bowen

Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #197 on: March 02, 2018, 03:14:55 PM »
Jeff,


I guess it's only a problem for me.  I do not want to hit wedges into every green.  The course I grew up playing had the following shots required on the first three holes; Driver - Mid Iron, Driver - Wedge, 3-wood - Mid Iron.  These holes are now 3-Wood - Wedge, Driver - chip, and Long Iron - Short Iron.


This idea that amateurs never gained any distance is laughable.  Ask Taylormade.  They gained 17 yards to their 3 wood in a single year.  Golf is being reduced to nothing but wedges for the majority of good players and not only the professionals.  Is that to be considered a good thing?  And if high handicap players would have more fun hitting shorter shots into greens then why do then insist on playing the middle tees?


I would be fine with bifurcation because I'm certain it wouldn't take long before the majority of golfers were playing with the professional ball.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #198 on: March 02, 2018, 04:10:00 PM »

I guess it's only a problem for me.  I do not want to hit wedges into every green.  The course I grew up playing had the following shots required on the first three holes; Driver - Mid Iron, Driver - Wedge, 3-wood - Mid Iron.  These holes are now 3-Wood - Wedge, Driver - chip, and Long Iron - Short Iron.



Actually this is where the whole thing started getting out of whack.  Pros play every par-4 driver/9-iron, but amateurs want greater variety, so they don't play the tees where they could hit the same sorts of approaches the pros hit ... they play further back than that.


When I asked Pete Dye about that, long ago, he said the only way to get average guys around PGA West was to build the tees for them at 5800 yards, but lie on the scorecard and say it was 6200 yards, because they wouldn't choose to play the 5800-yard tees.  And that's just what a lot of courses do, actually ... the tee markers are often moved way up from where the blue or white tees are listed on the card.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Journalism" and the Equipment Debate
« Reply #199 on: March 02, 2018, 04:55:33 PM »

I guess it's only a problem for me.  I do not want to hit wedges into every green.  The course I grew up playing had the following shots required on the first three holes; Driver - Mid Iron, Driver - Wedge, 3-wood - Mid Iron.  These holes are now 3-Wood - Wedge, Driver - chip, and Long Iron - Short Iron.



Actually this is where the whole thing started getting out of whack.  Pros play every par-4 driver/9-iron, but amateurs want greater variety, so they don't play the tees where they could hit the same sorts of approaches the pros hit ... they play further back than that.


When I asked Pete Dye about that, long ago, he said the only way to get average guys around PGA West was to build the tees for them at 5800 yards, but lie on the scorecard and say it was 6200 yards, because they wouldn't choose to play the 5800-yard tees.  And that's just what a lot of courses do, actually ... the tee markers are often moved way up from where the blue or white tees are listed on the card.


I remember running into a friend who I hadn’t seen in a while at the municipal course in the town I live in. He told me he had never broken 90 and then proceeded to tee off from the back stall. You can’t altogether get rid of the “macho” in golf.





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