I had a longer post with several quoted pieces, but since Terry saw fit to go ad hominem, I'll try something different.
My style of posting is how my brain works. I like to respond directly to people, rather than to make vague statements without quotes. I like facts, not conjecture based on personal feelings. I've got a background in the sciences, and am convinced by data, not what something "seems like" to someone else.
But I'll try it differently this time.
No Just one quote
s. No direct challenges.
Jason, five of the top 10 is interesting, but it's less compelling if 5 of the top 10 becomes 8 of the top 50, know what I mean? It's also less compelling if one of the courses that lengthened went from 6300 yards to 6550. Signifiant increase? Yes. But also likely well overdue, as 6300 yards was fairly short (for lower handicappers) in the 1960s. I'm not saying you or anyone else is at all wrong… I'm just saying I've yet to see any actual data on this beyond more than just a few small sets.
Sean_A, I liked a lot of what you said just recently. If people think that too many courses are having to build new tee boxes NOW, what will they think when a golf course that played 6000 yards plays 7500 yards after a 20% roll-back, and the course has to build new tees at 4800 yards, 4500 yards, and 4200 yards, while letting their 6000, 6300, and 6700 yard tees go out to pasture? Yes, those players who were playing at 6700 yards can move up to the existing 5400 yard tees, but everyone else will either be faced with a MUCH more difficult game or the course will have to add multiple new FORWARD tees.
I teach some women who will never carry the ball 160+ yards. Golf is already too difficult for them. Seniors. Children. Making the game MORE difficult hardly seems like the way to grow the game.
I've said more than a few times that 6500 yards is probably plenty for 95% of golfers. Why so many people care about what a tiny fraction of golfers - the game's best - are doing is beyond me. That's the first stumbling block I've had. I polled the golfers on my site whether they think there's a "problem" with the ball to begin with. Whether they think PGA Tour players hitting the ball too far is a "problem" for all of golf. Over 77% as of now say "not a problem."
Why do we care so much if Newport Country Club can't host a U.S. Open? Some other courses can't host U.S. Opens, but often if you get to the real reason, it's more about logistics - room for parking, corporate tents, etc. - than it is about the golf course. Oakmont still hosts U.S. Opens. The Honda Classic just saw -8 as the winning score in good weather from 7100 yards. No, I'm not saying PGA National is set up how I'd like to see every courses set up, but courses that hosted majors were tricked up in the past, too.
I agree that you're not going to find a complete lack of bias anywhere. Tom Doak has a bias. Golf Digest has a bias. I have a bias. Everyone here has a bias, and for many, it's simply based on how they think golf "should" be played. I think a lot of people just think golf should be played how it was when they had their best years.
My first set of clubs were persimmon and muscleback and I played balata balls with steel spikes. The game was freaking HARD. It's more enjoyable now, and beginners can get into the sport more easily now. Clubheads are bigger. Weigh less. They don't have to choose between playing a ball that feels like a rock or one that "smiles" at you after you mishit it one time.
Pace of play is a concern, absolutely. But pace of play still, IMO, has MUCH more to do with how players play the game, not the distance the ball travels.
Jeff, c'mon man… Not only did Jim correctly call you out for pushing the idea that the golf ball is "unregulated," you still don't seem to acknowledge that if you "rolled back" to even 1988 standards… the modern Pro V1 would still be legal. Pros in 1998 or 1988 had the distance available to them then, they just were forced to make a choice between control and distance. They opted for control. But if you took a 1988 Pinnacle core, slapped a thin soft mantle and urethane cover on it… voila! Pro V1! Legal and conforming.
Golfers willingly gave up about 15 of those 25 yards. The other 10 come from longer, lighter, larger clubheads. Increased fitness. Increased understanding of launch conditions. Better agronomy.
Players swing faster now!
Distance on the PGA Tour has - as far as the ball is concerned - basically plateaued. Jason's "1 yard per year since 2002" isn't correct. It's below 1 yard per year. Nor will it continue at an increased rate for the next 25 years. His fears are completely unfounded. As with any scientific advancement, there's an instant burst (2000-2001), and then the pace of growth slows until it plateaus, until the next advancement. But there won't be a "next advancement" because the rules won't allow it. The golf ball is at the limits of the rules right now. They've done it - they've given the players all the control they want with their irons while producing 2000-3000 RPM with the driver.
The only way players can hit the ball farther than they do now? By swinging the clubhead faster. Which, Jason, has also occurred in the last 15 years. You can't really regulate that, nor can you blame the ball. Golfers are better athletes now than they were in 1988.
The USGA has driver limitations of length (48"), clubhead size (460cc), and coefficient of restitution (0.83) for quite some time. Hard to see how these guys are continuing to get distance gains. The ball is regulated (not sure how this is debatable) and perhaps shafts and material science are what I would think. In addition to the indian itself not the arrow so to speak, getting bigger, faster and stronger.
They just swing faster these days. Yep.
Kalen, I'm opposed to all roll-backs at this point, but I'm opposed EVEN MORE to bifurcation. I'm with Jim on that: bifurcation is a non-starter IMO.
And don't mention other sports. There's a much clearer separation point there. We have that sort of "bifurcation" in golf, too: they play different tees. But unlike in golf, the NFL doesn't have someone enter and make it through a qualifier while in high school to get to play in the Super Bowl. The lines in other sports are significantly clearer than they are in golf, where college players will play in PGA Tour stops, amateurs will compete in qualifiers and then ultimately the U.S. Open, and so on.
There's a LOT more to say against the idea of bifurcation, but that argument has also been had a thousand times, so I'm going to try to resist having it again in this topic.
P.S. Jack won the long drive contest at the PGA Championship
in 1963 by hitting the ball
341 yards. Jason Kokrak won it in 2017 with a drive of… 321 yards. Some people seem to act like Jack was a peashooter. Heck, Bobby Jones hit the occasional 300 yarder.