[John Kavanaugh]

For those of you who wondered how bifurcation was going to start: Somewhere in middle America a young mother is looking forward to another year of watching her child compete in local tournaments. Junior has had reasonable success against local talent but like most of us struggles when competing against superior talent who may have better resources or just work harder. This just feels unfair as she watches her precious offspring face the trials of the most difficult time to grow up in our recent history. Childhood obesity, bullying, gender identification, social this and antisocial that. It's not fair, everyone, especially every child should hit the ball far, straight and high. What to do, what to do? It's simple...the science of bifurcation. A ball that goes just a bit further, just a bit higher and so straight not even his grandparents have to worry about getting injured as they relax in the shade. Who could possibly argue against a ball that forces children to love the game and is safer for everyone involved? It's a home run.


And who better to introduce this ball? The very people who you have been hitching your dreams to all along.


ANGC introduces the first tournament ball of it's kind. The Tiger...Drive, Chip and Putt like a Champion. For real bitches!!!

[George Pazin]

I'm not generally considered a dumb person by most, but I can't say I understand most of the posts on this thread. It's mostly muddled one offs that don't correlate to a whole lot of anything, with very few coherent lines of reasoning or principles. I do agree with John, comparisons to a handful of guys don't amount to much meaningful evidence.


And that's all I have to say about that...


Have a nice day, peace out.

[John Kavanaugh]

Bifurcation is not a one way street.

[V. Kmetz]

For those of you who wondered how bifurcation was going to start: Somewhere in middle America a young mother is looking forward to another year of watching her child compete in local tournaments. Junior has had reasonable success against local talent but like most of us struggles when competing against superior talent who may have better resources or just work harder. This just feels unfair as she watches her precious offspring face the trials of the most difficult time to grow up in our recent history. Childhood obesity, bullying, gender identification, social this and antisocial that. It's not fair, everyone, especially every child should hit the ball far, straight and high. What to do, what to do? It's simple...the science of bifurcation. A ball that goes just a bit further, just a bit higher and so straight not even his grandparents have to worry about getting injured as they relax in the shade. Who could possibly argue against a ball that forces children to love the game and is safer for everyone involved? It's a home run.

I had no idea your mother was for bifurcation of the ball; now that you've explained it, we totally get it. Can't say I agree with her reasons...but to put it another way, the enemy of my friends is my enemy, as are the friends of my enemy, but 43 (or was it 47) shooflies don't bother me


#JohnEKoyote-StableGenius


cheers  vk

[Ken Moum]

Ken,


What I don't understand is why some think the ball cannot be rolled back distance wise.

I didn't mean that it's impossible from a physics/science perspective.  Of course it's possible.


I don't think it possible for entirely political reasons.  The people who want it aren't gaining any headway on the issue, and I can't imagine a situation that will change that.


FWIW, I think the reason so many people quit, or never get hooked is that we all have a perception that modern clubs and balls make the game easier.  Which I find to be hogwash.


I've played enough golf with modern clubs, vintage clubs, hickory clubs, short sets, three-club rounds, one-club rounds etc., to have concluded that it's more fun to play golf when you go out there accepting of the fact that it's damned hard, and nothing is going to change that.


Listen to guys like Carl and Dennis Paulson talk about how they absolutely hate going out there and shooting 74-75, but taking a hickory set, energizes them, makes them love the game again.


Phil Blackmar addressed this in a wonderful blog post last October, https://pblackmar.wordpress.com/2017/10/17/old-become-new/.


My point is that we (golfers and the industry) have spent so much time and money trying to make the game easier, when the real joy of when we all started was how damned hard it is.  If everyone who started golf accepted that and stopped trying to buy there way to a lower score, I think golfers would be happier and the game would be healthier.


When I look back at the people who played bad golf with persimmon woods and blade irons, on the northern Minnesota nine-holer where I grew, and how much joy there was, it makes me sad.


Oh, and as far as Kavanaugh's latest trip down the wrong road, "[size=0px]Who could possibly argue against a ball that forces children to love the game and is safer for everyone involved? It's a home run."[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]
I think I just did, John, hitting a ball straight and far with no effort is clearly not how golf got popular in the first place, but it is how golf is dying an slow death.

[John Kavanaugh]

V,


I'm proud of the fact that my mother played her entire adult life and never broke 50 for nine holes despite it being a precious goal. She not only played the same balls and equipment as the finest players in the game our course had not yet built "women's" tees. We just added a couple of strokes to par for the ladies and every so politely suggested they like it. Odd isn't it that a gaggle of kids from 8 to 18 played the same course with the same equipment. All the while a couple of Master's winners dropped by and won our local tournament. Just a bunch of ordinary people playing the same game with the same equipment matching scores. No excuses, no favorites.


Ken,


The Tiger ball will go even further and straighter. And once mothers and fathers and grandma's and grandpa's get ahold of it everyone will be playing like a champion. No ball can force a child to love the game but don't underestimate how far trading hard work for science can go.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Nicklaus specifically calling out Titleist as being the primary perpetrator of the quest for infinite golf ball distance with no checks and balances was both striking and shocking.

No checks and balances? The ODS has existed since, what, 1976? Golf balls are one of the most highly regulated pieces of equipment in sports, let alone just golf.

Fortunately, we have websites such as My Golf Spy and The Hacker's Paradise that aren't beholden to advertisers

First thing I saw at THP: an ad for the Callaway Rogue driver (this year's latest and greatest, long and forgiving). First thing when I visited MGS? An ad for the Vice golf ball (goes just as far as a Pro V1). Those sites are, like the magazines, beholden to advertisers. MGS, I'll grant you, doesn't take money from Titleist or some of the other big names, but they're still primarily built on advertising revenue.

Baseball has wood bats only for major league baseball, all other leagues use metal.  What do you think would happen if they use metal bats?

I thought I read that the metal bats in college baseball were now really dead compared to the old ones from 30 years ago, and home run totals are way down.

Could we at least agree that it is possible to have an opinion opposite of Tom Doak and not be on the take?

Yes, please!

I think the why is alluded to in Toms original post.  In simple terms, its monkey see, monkey do.  Owners see courses add length to their course so they can have a championship caliber course and "test the best players", and then they must now keep up with the joneses...and the ripple effect is off and running.

I've yet to see a single valid bit of information on how many courses have done this. As I've said a few times, I can't think of a course in Erie that has added significant distance in the last 20 years. A new one was built in the 2000s and doesn't reach 7000 yards from the back tees. For somewhere around 95% of golfers, 6500 yards is plenty. I think this whole "monkey see, monkey do" thing is largely a myth. I think relatively few courses have spent significant money to add significant distance in the last 20 years. The ones that host PGA Tour events have, some of them, but they're - like PGA Tour players themselves - a relatively small percentage of the population.

[jeffwarne]

My point is that we (golfers and the industry) have spent so much time and money trying to make the game easier, when the real joy of when we all started was how damned hard it is.  If everyone who started golf accepted that and stopped trying to buy there way to a lower score, I think golfers would be happier and the game would be healthier.

When I look back at the people who played bad golf with persimmon woods and blade irons, on the northern Minnesota nine-holer where I grew, and how much joy there was, it makes me sad.

Good stuff Ken.
There used to be no greater thrill than seeing a good athlete scoff at golf, try it.... and whiff.
The challenge enticed him and he was hooked-practicing endlessly in private until he could come out of the shadows.

[Jason Topp]

I've yet to see a single valid bit of information on how many courses have done this. As I've said a few times, I can't think of a course in Erie that has added significant distance in the last 20 years. A new one was built in the 2000s and doesn't reach 7000 yards from the back tees. For somewhere around 95% of golfers, 6500 yards is plenty. I think this whole "monkey see, monkey do" thing is largely a myth. I think relatively few courses have spent significant money to add significant distance in the last 20 years. The ones that host PGA Tour events have, some of them, but they're - like PGA Tour players themselves - a relatively small percentage of the population.

In Minneapolis since the Pro V1 came into the marketplace and distances jumped in 2000 I am hard pressed to identify any top tier course that has not added yardage:


Hazeltine - added around 600 yards
Windsong (my club) - added a set of tees and plays around 7600 from the back tee boxes.
Interlachen - added about 300 yards and reduced par by 1-3 strokes
Golden Valley - added about 300 yards
Bunker Hills - has added 3-400 yards.


To me the issue is not about tournament players - it is high school kids.  Minnesota is not exactly a hotbed of high school talent.  Nonetheless the number 3 player at most area high schools has a 110 mph swing speed which is enough to turn a 450 yard par 4 into a driver and short iron. 

[BCowan]

I found this brilliant post on a previous thread, I'd thought I'd share it.  Has a lot of truth to it.


''One thing that bothers me about many people with a voice today is that in my youth when I could hit the bar long and far I do not recall a single gentleman who wished I was playing the same up tee as he. It seemed as though those who came before me admired the bigger homes, cars and breasts so enjoyed by the youth of the day. What happened where we now want our children to no longer be the best, for every child to be equal, for the grass to not only be greener on the other side of the fence but just greener damn the cost. I hope my children play 9,000 yard courses while living in 9,000 square foot homes while getting 9 miles to the gallon. That and 9% cheap beer sounds like a sweet future.''

[Jonathan Mallard]

You can boil this entire thread down to a single sentence Levitt and Dubner wrote in the intro to Superfreakonomics:


"People respond to incentives."

[Sean_A]

Blah, blah, blah.  There is no proof of this or little proof of that.  This debate will go in circles forever more.  I said this many moons ago...make yourself happy and play with what you want, how you want and where you want.  If folks don't like smashmouth golf don't belong to clubs or visit courses which lean that way...vote with your wallet....its the biggest statement you can make.  There is no one solution to fit all or work best for all. 

Ciao

[Joe Hancock]

Apathy and golf make strange bedfellows.

[John Kavanaugh]

When bifurcation occurs when do you switch your child from the Tiger ball to the professional ball?

[Tim Gavrich]

A request:


If you want to roll back the golf ball, could you please point to a specific moment in golf history (heck, I'd take a 3- to 5-year range) when the ball traveled the ideal distance, and explain why you chose that moment?



It would be helpful to see some concrete responses to this question because it would require rollback supporters to be accountable to their requests, rather than merely upset without any actual solution.

[BHoover]

A request:

If you want to roll back the golf ball, could you please point to a specific moment in golf history (heck, I'd take a 3- to 5-year range) when the ball traveled the ideal distance, and explain why you chose that moment?

1976 because it was such a cool year.

[Jason Topp]

A request:


If you want to roll back the golf ball, could you please point to a specific moment in golf history (heck, I'd take a 3- to 5-year range) when the ball traveled the ideal distance, and explain why you chose that moment?



It would be helpful to see some concrete responses to this question because it would require rollback supporters to be accountable to their requests, rather than merely upset without any actual solution.

1980 or so.  A long hitter got 280 off the tee and the club champion hit it 250.  A 400 yard hole was a driver/7 iron for a good player and a driver 3 wood for an 18 handicapper. 


Today a 400 yard hole is often a driver/3 wood for an 18 handicapper but a driver-wedge for a good player.

[John Kavanaugh]

One thing many of you do not understand is that back in the 70's irrigation was not as prevalent. I commonly drove greens on 300 yd holes and hit driver, 7 iron to 500 yd par 5's. Now I can do neither.


One very sad issue, this coming from a guy who is a member of a tour hosting course, is that when the pros come to town the fairways are the most firm all year. Let them play the soft fairways we play and this issue goes away.

[Jeff Schley]

A request:


If you want to roll back the golf ball, could you please point to a specific moment in golf history (heck, I'd take a 3- to 5-year range) when the ball traveled the ideal distance, and explain why you chose that moment?



It would be helpful to see some concrete responses to this question because it would require rollback supporters to be accountable to their requests, rather than merely upset without any actual solution.

1980 or so.  A long hitter got 280 off the tee and the club champion hit it 250.  A 400 yard hole was a driver/7 iron for a good player and a driver 3 wood for an 18 handicapper. 


Today a 400 yard hole is often a driver/3 wood for an 18 handicapper but a driver-wedge for a good player.

Actually less than 280.  Here is the driving distance chart from the top 10 in 1980.

ANK THIS WEEK	RANK LAST WEEK	PLAYER NAME	ROUNDS	AVG.	TOTAL DISTANCE	TOTAL DRIVES
1		Dan Pohl	96	274.3	51,839	189
2		Buddy Gardner	108	272.9	58,138	213
3		Fuzzy Zoeller	80	271.5	43,167	159
T4		Joe Hager	73	270.4	38,932	144
T4		Tommy Valentine	74	270.4	39,745	147
6		J.C. Snead	113	270.3	58,115	215
7		Dana Quigley	84	269.7	44,774	166
8		Tom Purtzer	93	269.4	49,025	182
9		Tom Weiskopf	88	269.1	46,015	171
10		Jack Nicklaus	49	269.0	26,091	97

[Jeff Schley]

Here is 2018 driving distance top 10.  What we see is the leader from this year has gained a MASSIVE 53 yards from the 1980 leader.  Also the 10th place golfer has gained 43 yards on the 1980 10th place golfer (Jack Nicklaus btw).  Now this is not taking into account the entire tour, but the top 10 have gained about 15% in distance from 1980 til today.  The course distance has changed from about 6500-6700 to 7500-7700 which is about 15% as well.  Correlation?  It appears courses are trying to keep pace.

ANK THIS WEEK	RANK LAST WEEK	PLAYER NAME	ROUNDS	AVG.	TOTAL DISTANCE	TOTAL DRIVES
1	1	Tony Finau	30	327.0	14,386	44
2	2	Trey Mullinax	21	319.5	13,417	42
3	3	Kevin Tway	34	318.1	16,542	52
4	4	Luke List	39	317.1	19,661	62
5	5	Graham DeLaet	10	315.9	2,527	8
6	7	Jason Day	16	315.4	5,047	16
7	6	Ryan Palmer	16	315.3	10,090	32
8	10	Justin Thomas	28	314.6	12,584	40
9	T8	Brandon Hagy	10	313.4	6,267	20
10	999	Rory McIlroy	11	312.3	6,871	22

[John Kavanaugh]

Look at the lack of consistency on how many drives per round they count. Stop publishing these lies...Please.

[jeffwarne]

I've yet to see a single valid bit of information on how many courses have done this. As I've said a few times, I can't think of a course in Erie that has added significant distance in the last 20 years. A new one was built in the 2000s and doesn't reach 7000 yards from the back tees. For somewhere around 95% of golfers, 6500 yards is plenty. I think this whole "monkey see, monkey do" thing is largely a myth. I think relatively few courses have spent significant money to add significant distance in the last 20 years. The ones that host PGA Tour events have, some of them, but they're - like PGA Tour players themselves - a relatively small percentage of the population.

In Minneapolis since the Pro V1 came into the marketplace and distances jumped in 2000 I am hard pressed to identify any top tier course that has not added yardage:


Hazeltine - added around 600 yards
Windsong (my club) - added a set of tees and plays around 7600 from the back tee boxes.
Interlachen - added about 300 yards and reduced par by 1-3 strokes
Golden Valley - added about 300 yards
Bunker Hills - has added 3-400 yards.

I've repeatedly read Erik's anecdotal evidence on this as well.
Erie PA (his citing area-has evidently not)


Every other area I've visited and lived in-nearly all have
Aiken
Augusta
the  MET Section-every renovation results in more card yardage-to say nothing of frequent simple in house additions
Eastern LI (Atlantic, Maidstone, Southampton, Shinny, NGLA-The Bridge actually got shorter in total by eliminating walkbacks but lengthened several long par 4's)
The UK and Ireland-built but often not open to use on daily basis
New Zealand
Central and south Florida-less so as most courses were too long to begin with being built in the dark ages.
Long Cove is much longer than it was in the laste 80's when I worked there


Every qualifier I've played in-at Gailles Links really stretched it with new back tees.
The Island added 60 yards to the third hole to put it over 500.
Most are constrained and simply have no room to go back.


That said, I do agree with Erik that 6500(or less) is a fine distance for the majority of golfers-and Palmetto regularly beats me up at 6400 yards.
But remember, the MAJORITY of golfers, do not play the majority of rounds.
That 2 handicap might log 150 rounds while that 23 might log only 10.


I'm not suggesting golf is too easy, or that courses need to be longer-just that many are.

[Jeff Schley]

Look at the lack of consistency on how many drives per round they count. Stop publishing these lies...Please.

John how are you buddy?  That was the 2018 season so far, they aren't done with the season.  Here is the full 2017 pretty similar numbers.

RANK THIS WEEK	RANK LAST WEEK	PLAYER NAME	ROUNDS	AVG.	TOTAL DISTANCE	TOTAL DRIVES
1	1	Rory McIlroy	51	317.2	27,917	88
2	2	Dustin Johnson	77	315.0	41,576	132
3	3	Brandon Hagy	85	312.7	48,162	154
T4	T4	Ryan Brehm	83	311.5	47,965	154
T4	T4	Luke List	102	311.5	61,046	196
6	6	Andrew Loupe	55	311.3	32,371	104
7	7	Brooks Koepka	88	311.1	47,293	152
8	8	Justin Thomas	86	309.7	43,977	142
9	9	Trey Mullinax	88	309.6	50,778	164
T10	T10	Tony Finau	106	309.2	61,842	200

[Eric LeFante]

I've yet to see a single valid bit of information on how many courses have done this. As I've said a few times, I can't think of a course in Erie that has added significant distance in the last 20 years. A new one was built in the 2000s and doesn't reach 7000 yards from the back tees. For somewhere around 95% of golfers, 6500 yards is plenty. I think this whole "monkey see, monkey do" thing is largely a myth. I think relatively few courses have spent significant money to add significant distance in the last 20 years. The ones that host PGA Tour events have, some of them, but they're - like PGA Tour players themselves - a relatively small percentage of the population.

In Minneapolis since the Pro V1 came into the marketplace and distances jumped in 2000 I am hard pressed to identify any top tier course that has not added yardage:


Hazeltine - added around 600 yards
Windsong (my club) - added a set of tees and plays around 7600 from the back tee boxes.
Interlachen - added about 300 yards and reduced par by 1-3 strokes
Golden Valley - added about 300 yards
Bunker Hills - has added 3-400 yards.

I've repeatedly read Erik's anecdotal evidence on this as well.
Erie PA (his citing area-has evidently not)


Every other area I've visited and lived in-nearly all have
Aiken
Augusta
the  MET Section-every renovation results in more card yardage-to say nothing of frequent simple in house additions
Eastern LI (Atlantic, Maidstone, Southampton, Shinny, NGLA-The Bridge actually got shorter in total by eliminating walkbacks but lengthened several long par 4's)
The UK and Ireland-built but often not open to use on daily basis
New Zealand
Central and south Florida-less so as most courses were too long to begin with being built in the dark ages.
Long Cove is much longer than it was in the laste 80's when I worked there


Every qualifier I've played in-at Gailles Links really stretched it with new back tees.
The Island added 60 yards to the third hole to put it over 500.
Most are constrained and simply have no room to go back.


That said, I do agree with Erik that 6500(or less) is a fine distance for the majority of golfers-and Palmetto regularly beats me up at 6400 yards.
But remember, the MAJORITY of golfers, do not play the majority of rounds.
That 2 handicap might log 150 rounds while that 23 might log only 10.


I'm not suggesting golf is too easy, or that courses need to be longer-just that many are.

I agree Jeff. I too play in the Met section and many great golf courses that don't hold a PGA Tour event have lengthened their courses to stay relevant with the better players and keep up with their neighbors and what they see on TV. It has nothing to do with score because even the best players in the area cannot break par from 6,000 yards when greens that were designed to roll at 6 roll at 12.


It's no coincidence that many of the top courses planted trees and wanted every blade of grass green 50+ years ago as the Masters became prominent on TV.

[jeffwarne]

Look at the lack of consistency on how many drives per round they count. Stop publishing these lies...Please.

Just like the USGA-need more data..


Are there any regulations on the blade of a shovel used to dig continually deeper holes to bury one's head in?

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