[Bill Brightly]

Brad Klein wrote this in his article for Golf Advisor. I think it is a pretty powerful statement. Here's the full paragraph:


Architecture starts when the ball hits the ground. It's all about bounce and roll. Some premier players dispute this, referring to the outcome as “unfair” since they are spoiled to expect the ball the stop where it lands. But firm, fast playing conditions and an interesting ground game provide a measure of unpredictability that can frustrate the careless player who does not think about what happens when the golf ball reacts with the earth.

I bet that most golfers look at a hole from the tee and make their primary judgements about the quality of the architecture, ignoring roll. Brad's statement also implies that a course that does not play fast and firm can't really be great. Do you agree?

[Thomas Dai]

Colin started this thread a little while back -http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65567.0.html -
and included this quote form Bobby Jones -


“The point I set out to make was that on the old hard, fast courses golf was a more exacting game and, in a way, a more fascinating one. I was discussing this with Arnold Palmer the other evening, and my position was that we’ve permitted ourselves to go too far in the other direction. With our soft, holding greens today, golf has become almost entirely target golf. You fly your shot right to your target and it settles where it lands. Of course, mine may be an old-fashioned view, but I believe that the bounce of the ball should be part of the game, and when you play a fast, resilient course it is. Then, as I said, you must improvise all sorts of shots to cope with the terrain. I know that some of those little pitches and pitch-and-runs—the one that came off successfully—gave me as much satisfaction as any shots I ever played.”


atb

[Kalen Braley]

I suppose its all in how one defines "architecture"


Either way I don't see how this can be true, unless anyone can say with a straight face that standing on say the 18th tee at Pebble, having not yet hit a ball, your mind isn't already racing and considering multiple playing strategies, much less being influenced by the surroundings...

[Jeff_Brauer]

When the typical drive these days only has nine yards of roll, I fail to see this as being universally true. (Yes, I know many tune their drivers for more roll to max distance out)


Nearly every review Brad writes has the phrase "ground game options" which is his thing.  However, twenty years later, I only occasionally see golfers try the ground game, and most of the time, its actually me, willing to try anything for fun.

[Jeff Schley]

I bet that most golfers look at a hole from the tee and make their primary judgements about the quality of the architecture, ignoring roll. Brad's statement also implies that a course that does not play fast and firm can't really be great. Do you agree?

No, but one that does play fast and firm is the best version of itself.

We see this every year when the USGA wants to get the course firm and fast.  I remember back in I think 2004 US Open where they were syringing the greens to keep them from dying.  I was thinking how in the hell is Retief Goosen putting like that on those greens?  Unbelievable talent that week as everyone else was pushing 80.

[Scott Warren]

Sure, it’s best when the ball bounces and rolls — but I baulk at suggesting that’s where “architecture starts”.

[Frank M]

That’s a funny statement, especially since I’m sure a lot of it takes into consideration what the golfer needs to do with the ball in the air.

[Steve Lang]

   Definitely agree, as its not all about tee shots or approach shots... its really about all shots and putts.

[Mike_Young]

A ground game is fine as long as you have an air game...so many I hear talk ground game don't have an air game....but for the skiled player who does, the air game usually rules...i

[Steve Lang]

   Don't most players start with a ground game and get seduced by the aerial side??

[Dave McCollum]

For years I’ve used this notion, along with Klien’s complementary one about reading all landing areas like greens, as a way of explaining how links golf is different from most US golf.  Ultimately it’s all about the grass, firmness, and climate.

[jeffwarne]

I'm still trying to figure out what "firm yet receptive" means....

[Bill Brightly]

I'll take a stab at this but really hope some of the superintendents chime in. I think certain greens are firm but the grass type seems to receive the ball better. On most of the links courses I've played in the UK & I, the first bounce is "up and out", even on well struck shots form the fairway, and the backspin on the ball seems not to matter as much as on parkland courses in the US. Even if the firmness is equivilent and the greens are the same on the stimp. I could be wrong, and as I said, I'd be happy to be corrected by a superintendent who knows a lot about different types of turf.

[Jim Nugent]

Is Brad's statement true of Pine Valley? 

[William_G]

I think this is the total truth by Brad

if you hit the proper shot whatever the condition, the architecture will then takeover as the ball lands

if you hit the improper shot whatever the condition, the architecture will then takeover as the ball lands

enough said

have fun

[Sean_A]

Sure, it’s best when the ball bounces and rolls — but I baulk at suggesting that’s where “architecture starts”.

+1...if architecture doesn't start when standing on the tee the archie has failed.

Ciao

[Adam Clayman]

Bradley is correct on this one. It's that pesky little line between the sport and game.


Pros, self centered participants, and, all those who cherish a fact like drives typically only get nine yards of roll, either won't, don't, or, not yet see, the difference between the two. All they see is how unfair it was that "they" hit it perfectly, but are nowhere near where "they" wanted "their" ball to come to fruition.


Giving golfers what they want, is the root cause of why it's elitist persona, is getting out of control. 

[Niall C]

Bill


I know you say this is the full comment but I wonder if there is anything else that might put it better into context, since as it reads at the moment it doesn’t make any sense, at least not to me.


I’d take “architecture” to mean the art of design, and surely an integral part of the design is where you tee off from. Where a player hits from will likely dictate what club is used and that will have a huge bearing on how the ball reacts when it hits the ground. That is true throughout the green I’d suggest. You cannot therefore divorce the landing area from the rest of the design so the statement makes no sense.


Niall

[Ira Fishman]

Bill


I know you say this is the full comment but I wonder if there is anything else that might put it better into context, since as it reads at the moment it doesn’t make any sense, at least not to me.


I’d take “architecture” to mean the art of design, and surely an integral part of the design is where you tee off from. Where a player hits from will likely dictate what club is used and that will have a huge bearing on how the ball reacts when it hits the ground. That is true throughout the green I’d suggest. You cannot therefore divorce the landing area from the rest of the design so the statement makes no sense.


Niall

+1


And how can the quote account for/encompass outstanding routing, visual tricks, great holes where it is about the carry such as Par 3?






Ira

[Kalen Braley]

I think this is the total truth by Brad

if you hit the proper shot whatever the condition, the architecture will then takeover as the ball lands

if you hit the improper shot whatever the condition, the architecture will then takeover as the ball lands

enough said

have fun

William,


While thats true, that wasn't his claim.  The architecture starts on the tee when you peg the ball and are trying to figure out what your strategy is...

[George Pazin]

A ground game is fine as long as you have an air game...so many I hear talk ground game don't have an air game....but for the skiled player who does, the air game usually rules...i

Is there really anyone who continues in the game that can't get the ball airborne? I still think everyone vastly misjudges those who ask for the ground game option. Asking for the ground game to be available is simply saying, I can't reliably use drop and stop, it doesn't mean you can't hit the ball in the air. Doesn't seem like that much of a concession to me, particularly for older golfers and women, from what I'm told.

[jeffwarne]

"conditioning" starts when the ball hits the ground.


"architecture" is enhanced when conditioning and sandy soil allow it to shine

[Matthew Essig]

"conditioning" starts when the ball hits the ground.


"architecture" is enhanced when conditioning and sandy soil allow it to shine

Perfectly said!

[MClutterbuck]

A ground game is fine as long as you have an air game...so many I hear talk ground game don't have an air game....but for the skiled player who does, the air game usually rules...i

Is there really anyone who continues in the game that can't get the ball airborne? I still think everyone vastly misjudges those who ask for the ground game option. Asking for the ground game to be available is simply saying, I can't reliably use drop and stop, it doesn't mean you can't hit the ball in the air. Doesn't seem like that much of a concession to me, particularly for older golfers and women, from what I'm told.

+1


Not being able to get the ball in the air is a problem affecting practically no one. Lack of width is the real issue affecting the bad golfer.

[Tom_Doak]

Golf is played in 3-D.  Unfortunately, there are lots of architects who try to reduce it to 2-D ... making surfaces almost flat where they expect the ball to land, so that the bounce doesn't have to be factored into the equation.


We spend more time thinking about the contours where the ball is going to land, and designing based on those, than we spend thinking about how far a bunker is from the tee, or how long the hole is.  If you utilize the natural contours as part of the course's defenses, that's when you get the greatest results.

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