[Tim Gallant]

Niall,


re: Bunker style. It is very saddening that many of the bigger names all seem to be doing the same [box standard] style of frilly, jagged edged bunkering. C&C, Doak, M&E all look the same to me.  You talk about evolution and the chances of the architect's style evolving but it seems to me that they all started at different points and have ended up at the same place. Doak's Common Ground appears to be the only exception in recent years. If the style is to change it will probably be down to the greenkeepers rather than the GCA.

Jon,


Definitely disagreeing on this point. As an exercise look at photos of the bunkering at Renaissance, look at photos of the bunkering at St Emilion, look at photos of the bunkering at Tara Iti, look at photos of the bunkering at The Loop and for good measure look at photos of the restored Bel Air and then tell me all Doak bunkers look the same.


Grouping M&E in with Doak is like grouping Thomas Kinkade in with Picasso...

[Niall C]

Jon

Fashion in bunker style is like the Scottish weather - if you don’t like it just wait 5 minutes and it will be all change. In any case I tend to think you are over stating it by suggesting architects are all doing the same thing. Some architects lead, others follow and some appear to be completely oblivious to the prevailing fashion. And as you say, once the greenkeeper gets his hands on the bunkers………………..

But perhaps the bigger point is lack of opportunity for talented individual architects such as Ally. From what I saw of his work on the Irish BUDA a few years ago I’d go a long way to play one of his courses and I’d love to see him get a crack at a new course. However all things are relative, there is probably some aspiring gca in Ireland cursing his luck that Ally McIntosh keeps hoovering up most of the links renovations 

Niall

[David Davis]

I always enjoyed Nairn and am sure I still will once they finish.


While I understand Ally's comments perhaps largely concerning other companies getting chances to do some of the work. I'm personally quite a fan of the work Mackenzie & Ebert are doing. Definitely being a member of the R&A helps no doubt but so does the fact that Hawtree is getting on in age and thankfully not doing much else (I'm not a fan at all of his work for the record). It also helps to be doing renovations on 6 of the 9 Open Rota courses and not screwing that up. Imagine the exposure you get from that in the UK. If I were a young architect I'd be looking to find a way to take over Hawtree's spot in being close with the R&A. Easier said than done.


So there has now been two criticsms about changing greens, one at Royal North Devon, 8 or 9th hole and here at Nairn. I think people have to take into consideration that clubs are making the requests and if any architects are not going in and telling them to change great classic holes Martin & Tom definitely are not. They are trying to solve problems in the best possible way. Not always easy and just because we might like a tiny green with no pin placements we don't know what the aspiration of the club are and what effect those aspirations might have on their revenue streams.


Anyway that being said until you've either been an architect and working in their shoes or served on green committees it's hard to understand what kind of crazy stuff and wishes clubs have though I'd like to believe that the UK is by default smarter about this stuff than the rest of us.


And furthermore from any of the critics I'm yet to hear of anything they've done that is general seen as a huge screw-up.


Go play Turnberry and Portrush for example. If that doesn't build some trust then we are definitely on different pages with regards to architecture which is fine.

[Rich Goodale]

As "Deep Throat" said--"Follow the Money."

In the current golfing environment, the 7-10 Doak scale places in GBI are raking in the dough from the USA belt-notchers (ie.e US!) and they really don't know what to do with the dosh, so why not try to get from a 7 to an 8 by showering the course with "minimalism?" It will only cost the clubs a few million Squid, and the Committees get pats on their backs once the ribbons are cut.

Vis a vis Nairn, it was "Nairn" when I first played it in 1979, and "The Nairn" a decade or so ago and I wonder if they are shooting for "The Royal Nairn" in the near future by adopting Don King bunkers?

I've seen stranger things in my life....

Rich

[Ally Mcintosh]

Niall,


Thank you for those words. Of course, I’m not hoovering up links renovations and am barely even looking so this isn’t a bitterness that someone else is getting “all the work”. For the record, aside from the two links courses you’ve known me to work on, I was approached by a third well known club with grand ideas and advised them to leave their course well alone.


And that forms the crux of my issue. I think you have to really know a links course before you can understand how each hole plays in different conditions. You can’t rock up, do a couple of days site investigation and then suggest toughening the course by recommending bunkers are staggered on each side of the fairway.


I’m seeing a load of links courses at the moment with changes and schemes and styles that are very similar and I think it will end up in the modernisation and homogenisation of our courses. This is what is making me a little concerned, especially when some of the work is not necessary. Vive la difference!


To David’s point, I really liked the scheme at Portrush (though haven’t see it since it was finished) and told Martin Ebert as much the one time I met him a couple of years ago.


Most people I know shout very highly about Turnberry. Though one I trust almost above all others doesn’t. I haven’t ever seen the course so won’t be able to compare even when I do.


As for Nairn, I’m sure Tom’s suggestions are well thought out and will be executed skilfully in the field. I’m not sure I can say that about every course being changed at the moment however. But then I’m never going to agree with everything. We all have our own ideas. I just feel quite strongly about mine.

[Thomas Dai]

'The Rich'. Like it!


Interesting to consider how modification, renovations etc are initiated or move forward.


Is it a large element of the 'members' who desire it or is it a small clique or committee or a Captain/Chairman/President who wants to leave his/her 'mark'?
Is it the GM/Secretary or the Head G-k or Course Manager?
Is it an outside influence like a government, a golfing organisation etc saying something like "We quite like your course, do this and we'll bring this event here"?
Is it an architect 'tapping-up' or convincing a club that this or that needs to be done?
Etc, etc, etc.


It's usually worth looking behind the curtains, especially if someone wants to spend loads of money or change the frame that the Mona Lisa is mounted in to an aluminium one.


atb

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,


re: Bunker style. It is very saddening that many of the bigger names all seem to be doing the same [box standard] style of frilly, jagged edged bunkering. C&C, Doak, M&E all look the same to me.  You talk about evolution and the chances of the architect's style evolving but it seems to me that they all started at different points and have ended up at the same place. Doak's Common Ground appears to be the only exception in recent years. If the style is to change it will probably be down to the greenkeepers rather than the GCA.

Jon,


Definitely disagreeing on this point. As an exercise look at photos of the bunkering at Renaissance, look at photos of the bunkering at St Emilion, look at photos of the bunkering at Tara Iti, look at photos of the bunkering at The Loop and for good measure look at photos of the restored Bel Air and then tell me all Doak bunkers look the same.


Grouping M&E in with Doak is like grouping Thomas Kinkade in with Picasso...

Tim,


I'll give you renaissance but a quick look at the Courses by Country profile of Tara Iti it is very much the posterchild of the look. Was Bel Air not a restoration? To put it in context I said it seemed to me this was the case in general and per your examples I don't see anything to alter my opinion but am open to being persuaded. (St. Andrews Beach, PD, Tara Iti, Streamsong……) Then of course there is C&C.


Do not get me wrong, I do not think the look is wrong or bad but it is becoming very jaded through over use by multiple players. But I think this conversation is possibly best being taken forward on another thread instead of hijacking this one.

[Tim Gallant]

Niall,


Thank you for those words. Of course, I’m not hoovering up links renovations and am barely even looking so this isn’t a bitterness that someone else is getting “all the work”. For the record, aside from the two links courses you’ve known me to work on, I was approached by a third well known club with grand ideas and advised them to leave their course well alone.


And that forms the crux of my issue. I think you have to really know a links course before you can understand how each hole plays in different conditions. You can’t rock up, do a couple of days site investigation and then suggest toughening the course by recommending bunkers are staggered on each side of the fairway.


I’m seeing a load of links courses at the moment with changes and schemes and styles that are very similar and I think it will end up in the modernisation and homogenisation of our courses. This is what is making me a little concerned, especially when some of the work is not necessary. Vive la difference!


To David’s point, I really liked the scheme at Portrush (though haven’t see it since it was finished) and told Martin Ebert as much the one time I met him a couple of years ago.


Most people I know shout very highly about Turnberry. Though one I trust almost above all others doesn’t. I haven’t ever seen the course so won’t be able to compare even when I do.


As for Nairn, I’m sure Tom’s suggestions are well thought out and will be executed skilfully in the field. I’m not sure I can say that about every course being changed at the moment however. But then I’m never going to agree with everything. We all have our own ideas. I just feel quite strongly about mine.

Very well said Ally.


Jon - point taken. I'll see if I can dig out another thread on this subject, as I think it is worth looking at the differences.

[Sean_A]

Too much time is spent on the style of bunker rather than is a bunker the right feature and if so where should it be placed.

I don't see what the issue is of mixing styles.  A lot depends on what the goal is. The splashy, hairy bunkers are ok for areas where the design isn't calling for the ball to run so much and need to blend; bunkers cutting in from rough etc.  Why not pot-like (even if not revetted) bunkers where the grass is short?  Porthcawl seems to be mixing styles to great effect, same for Wimbledon. 

Mixing styles also makes it easier to vary the size.  Too often I see courses with bunkers of the same size...it looks weird.  The hard aspect of pots is getting them to look right in the ground because they are so small. If there isn't a natural pocket or one that is made extremely well by shaping a large area around the pot(s), they look very weird.  There are examples of centre line pots at Castle Stuart which look awful, even if they are well placed.

I share Ally's concern of homogenization, but links have long been going down this road.  We can see it in green revisions and especially pot bunkering.  I actually think some courses going back to more free form bunkers is a good idea if they can find a way to properly contain sand (another reason different styles work).  I am skeptical anytime playability and lack of hole locations are used as excuses to alter greens.  To me that reeks of pro talk and what course on the planet holds that many pro events to use these as good excuses to alter greens?  If the number one goal in altering courses isn't to create more variety and interest, then the thinking is flawed and likely the results will be mediocre at best.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

Once a style fits the land then I’m fine. I also think mixing styles can work (I am doing the same) although I think hairy edged fairways and revetted edged greens is too stark and unnatural a dividing line.


I am more concerned about the positioning too. And I see too much evidence of bunkers being placed by yardage from the tee. That approach leads to similar schemes, a lack of originality and more to the point is rendered almost pointless in links conditions. You really need to know a links very well to be placing bunkers on it that mean something. Otherwise just choose the natural folds and hollows.

[Sean_A]

Below is a mix style at Porthcawl. I think the newer version looks loads better and could be improved if the left greenside bunker were turned hairy as well.  To me, the origin of the bunker should play a role in deciding the style.  Meaning, if flowing from rough, keep it rough, if in short grass area, keep it clean. Although, in this case, I am not convinced a short left bunker is necessary. 







An example from Wimbledon which is outstanding. Mind you, I really like the rolled over grass style. 


Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

Things constantly change, evolve etc.


Here's the Road Hole bunker at TOC a few decades ago. Bit different to these days! -





And of course what's on the ground a few weeks/months/years after the architect/renovator etc left the site is unlikely to be the same format/style once the maintenance crew have been taking care of it for a while, the more so if funds become limited over time.


atb

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I asked a member of Nairn about the changes, and a friend of his who is a frequent visitor. Both agreed that the 14th is a great hole as it stands and that moving holes nearer to the water was asking for trouble with erosion.

[David Davis]

I asked a member of Nairn about the changes, and a friend of his who is a frequent visitor. Both agreed that the 14th is a great hole as it stands and that moving holes nearer to the water was asking for trouble with erosion.

Mark,


Did you happen to ask if that's being pushed by the architect or if that a strong request from the course greens committee?

[Mark_Rowlinson]

David,


I don't know but I have asked the men on your behalf.


M.

[Niall C]

Mark

I think I'm right in saying the club have already taken remediation measures against erosion with rock reinforcements placed along the side of the first at least. Do you know if they have had or are having any trouble with erosion /

Niall

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Niall, I don't know. I haven't been for some years.


It seems the decisions on moving holes and changing the 14th were in the architect's proposals.

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