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Mark_F

Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2018, 04:44:36 PM »
Here is a link to Marks photo-tour of N&P from a while back plus, in reply 46 details/photos by Donal and Garland of how the course used to be.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,54377.0.html
atb


Thanks for that link, Thomas.


It would be a great pity if the course was no more, not just for the local community that benefits from whatever golf tourism passes through a fairly remote area, but the members who have not just each others' company to enjoy, but a wonderful links with one of the most amazing sets of greens around.


It was dirt cheap when I played it in November 2012, less than $50, but if the summer price is $130 or so, that is still great value. There may be a handful of somewhat indifferent, or at least lesser, holes, but 5,6,7,8, 10 and 15 at the least more than make up for it.


Hopefully they find a solution.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2018, 04:40:15 AM »
I've a feeling this will sort itself out favourably. Sounds like brinksmanship more than anything else.


I tend to side with Robin’s sentiment here. But let’s see.


There are a few other clubs in Ireland with debts recently sold to vulture funds. So wouldn’t be surprised to see other news stories in the coming years. Hopefully not.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 12:58:03 PM »
Doesn't this sound like the classic case of absentee ownership?  While the cat is away, the mice will play...

Golf and an F&B operation is a  license for someone to unilaterally  up their compensation. Pity they are eating into local economy, yet I suspect local players are jockeying for a takeover or squeeze out...

I loved my one play there with
Garland on a real windy day and running into Jeff coincidentally.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2018, 01:03:02 PM »
Aye Marty, do you no reckon this is a better take on Irish economics, if no the werld?  ::) ;D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSpL7nA5Uco
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2018, 01:34:40 PM »
Aye Marty, do you no reckon this is a better take on Irish economics, if no the werld?  ::) ;D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSpL7nA5Uco

Dick- I thought you are a paisano.  You didn't tell me you have an Irish brother!

Quite a command of the language this guy has just working from talking points on a small sheet of paper cupped in his hand.  Imagine what he could do with an online dictionary and thesaurus!   ::)

Projecting from the information so far presented, it seems that the 800 or so N & P members could more easily resolve the problems by injecting some €1.5-2.5k apiece and negotiating directly with the landowner of the land hosting three holes.  Could it be yet another example of some "stakeholders" wanting the benefits of the enterprise without its responsibilities?  Can't blame the locals for trying.  Things are much easier when others carry the cost, until they don't.  ;)

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2018, 02:04:47 PM »

Lou,


I doubt many of the members have that kind of cash spare.


On the point of the 3 holes, why not just play 15 holes and be done with it.


Jon

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2018, 12:57:52 PM »
Jon,

Do we know which three holes are (in part) on leased land?  4, 5 and 6?

I doubt that a 15-hole course would draw visitors from outside the immediate area, and if it is true that many of the members don't have the resources to take it over, the business model likely depends on folks like us who are willing to pay €80 for one time around.

I would be curious to learn what the annual dues are for N & P's members.  I am aware of a club in the UK whose single round visitor fee amounts to 25% of a member's annual dues.  In comparison, at my home club (TX), the weekday guest fee is approximately 1.5% of the annual dues.

Perhaps someone like Ally, who seems to get the most from small sites, can come in and find three holes in the land owned by the club, even if it lowers par to 71 or 70.  Armed with workable plans (maybe including some grading affecting the view from the leased land), the club would likely be in a better position to negotiate a satisfactory long-term lease with the landowner.

Mr. Wilson,

You should know that I don't "hurl" casual insults.  In those very few occasions warranting rebuke, I resort to full-fledged frontal attacks.  Alas, your comments do not qualify.  On a website which treasures "strategy" and "angles", I was merely suggesting that at Lahinch, you must have been in hog heaven.  After all, it was the Good Doctor who opined that the recovery shot is the most exciting.

BTW, I also thought that the Lahinch experience was terribly overpriced, but, as you pointed out, twice, I am price sensitive.  I did like the course very much and had my many opportunities for recoveries, very few successfully executed.


Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2018, 01:36:38 PM »
I agree with Robin that it looks like a bit of brinkmanship going on here.


What is a hundred acres or so of linksland in Co Donegal worth? What else can you do with it apart from play golf on it? Graze a few sheep?


It is inconceivable to me that the golf course will be lost. Even if the club call the receivers in the assets will be sold - meaning that the course will be bought by someone on the cheap free of all debt.


I know nothing of Narin and Portnoo but if I was involved as a member I'd be negotiating a pre-pack with a friendly receiver and the bloke who owns the three holes.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2018, 02:54:42 PM »

Lou,


you are comparing apples with pears I am afraid. What is the membership rate at your home course? I bet it is possible the same per month as most UK clubs charge per year. Also weekday verses weekday & weekend are two different things. Finally, I think you are correct that not many will pay 80 euro to play 15 holes but probably more than if the course is closed. I think the club needs to focus on staying open and then worry about big buck greenfees once this is achieved. After all it is a combination of easy money and chasing big bucks that probably led to this situation in the first place.


Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2018, 03:24:20 PM »
Sweet Lou

While I agree that N&P is a bit pricey for what it is (I think people sing of its praises a bit too loudly, but that likely started when the fee was half what it is now), it isn't quite cricket to compare US dues/greenfees to GB&I dues/greenfees.  It is not at all unusual for a club to charge 10-15% of its dues as a visitor fee...because people will pay.  Visitor fees are a serious revenue stream for many clubs in a way it never can be for US clubs.  Look at it this way, you can pay and play nearly all GB&I clubs without ever having to cozy up to a member or even say hello to a member.  So, a bit extra may be charged for that privilege. Though I understand some clubs take the piss, but no more than in the US in which many clubs have so called "guest fees" rising well above $200. It is what it is.


BTW...I would be amazed if N&P stays closed.  It will re-open, but let us hope with more attractive visitor fees  :-*

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 03:25:54 PM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2018, 04:11:26 PM »
The complaints about the 80 euro green fee seem misplaced to me.  Lahinch and the rest of the big five are at 180-220 euro, and many of the second tier courses are over 100.  If I built a very good links course in Ireland, I'd charge more than 80 euro.


I think it's highly unlikely this fellow bought up the club's debt so he could lower the visitor fees.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2018, 05:21:17 PM »
Tom- mine is not so much a complaint as an assessment that €80 for a round at N & P was not worth it to me.  The course is good, but certainly not anywhere close to top tier, and my bet is that a links you might build there would be clearly superior.  As I also noted in this thread, I thought that Lahinch was grossly over-priced.  I understand that I am not in their target tourist market, and I certainly understand that the clubs can charge whatever the market will bear.

Sean- I think it is fair to compare different business plans, and, BTW, vis-à-vis the members, I much prefer yours over there.  There is some advantage to not having to mess with finding a member in the UK to play a private club, though I find that the experience is much superior (can't think of a single bad instance) playing with a proud member, not to say anything about the savings in fees.  Many U.S. courses allow unaccompanied play, sometimes simply by calling or writing ahead, but most often through your home pro.  For more than economic reasons, I also prefer in the U.S. playing with a member who knows the course and its history.   True, unaccompanied guest fees can be very high here and I have been known to pass on some renowned courses which discourage this type of play with an exorbitant green fee.

Jon- apples and pears?  The two systems are generally different, largely reflecting considerable variances in culture and economics.  In our top tier here, exclusivity plays a large part, but N & P is not close to that level in the RoI.  My home club is in the second tier with a course that's competes favorably with some of the big boys.  It is a sub-suburban course in an area with greater density and superior demographics than N & P's.  Though it generates some revenues from Monday outings and guest play, dues make up the lion's share.  Just to step on the course, it is around $500/month.

I suspect that N & P's business plan depends on significant guest play.  If, as you say, its members can't spare €1.5 to 2.5k each to re-capitalize the club, I would be concerned with its future as a going concern.  There is nothing about the clubhouse to suggest extravagance, and the stated debt does not appear to be outrageous (I know of a Dallas club that borrowed $10 Million for a $14 Million renovation).  That N & P can't make debt service with an €80 guest fee and its current member roll suggests that members might need to pay higher dues and/or find a better price point to increase its guest revenues.  In a remote site, it is harder to do.  All the more power to the members if they can find an angel to relieve them of the debt.     

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2018, 05:30:30 PM »


The complaints about the 80 euro green fee seem misplaced to me.  Lahinch and the rest of the big five are at 180-220 euro, and many of the second tier courses are over 100.  If I built a very good links course in Ireland, I'd charge more than 80 euro.


I think it's highly unlikely this fellow bought up the club's debt so he could lower the visitor fees.


Tom,


the club got into the trouble it did somehow didn't it! Whilst $200 dollar green fees might be not unusual in the US they are in GB&I with only the very top clubs charging them. Yes, some high rolling tourists will pay the big fees but very few local would and even few can afford to. N&P is much more a local's club than anything else. If you built a course in Ireland I am sure your name would be enough to attract high rolling tourists to it and so afford your high end fees but if you were relying on locals as most courses do I can assure you the fees would be lower.



Lou,


so membership at your club costs $6'000 a year. I suspect N&P is about a tenth of that. Were your club based in Ireland I suspect the GF revenue % would be much higher. I think you are looking at the situation as though it were in the US but it is not. Different land, different demographic, different solution.

Jon

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2018, 08:08:04 PM »
The complaints about the 80 euro green fee seem misplaced to me.  Lahinch and the rest of the big five are at 180-220 euro, and many of the second tier courses are over 100.  If I built a very good links course in Ireland, I'd charge more than 80 euro.

I think it's highly unlikely this fellow bought up the club's debt so he could lower the visitor fees.

Tom

You don't mind the green fee as much as I do likely for two reasons

1. You like the course more than I do...I don't think I would organize a trip to go back unless N&P was a matter of convenience when playing Cruit Island. 

2. You have more money than I do  8)

Golf generally is over-priced, in Ireland it is once again reaching a level of stupidity.

Ciao     
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2018, 11:05:02 PM »



the club got into the trouble it did somehow didn't it! Whilst $200 dollar green fees might be not unusual in the US they are in GB&I with only the very top clubs charging them. Yes, some high rolling tourists will pay the big fees but very few local would and even few can afford to. N&P is much more a local's club than anything else. If you built a course in Ireland I am sure your name would be enough to attract high rolling tourists to it and so afford your high end fees but if you were relying on locals as most courses do I can assure you the fees would be lower.



Hi Jon:


Yes, I've worked in Europe a bit, and I have first hand experience that the fees are lower. (You probably shouldn't assume you know what I charge for a given project.)


If I do the project I'm looking at in Ireland, I will likely be a part owner instead of taking a much reduced fee.  That's why I'm so interested in this discussion.  Are the "retail golf" greens fees posted on all the Irish courses just for the uninformed?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2018, 03:31:32 AM »

Tom,


I was just talking about the green fees and not what you charge for design. These are two very different things and I  would never assumed about what you charge for design fees. I would be interested if you become a part owner will your RACK RATE GREENFEES be more or less than 50 euros though?


I was also talking about GB&I not just Ireland hence I wrote GB&I not Ireland. To answer your question is the price in Ireland just for the uninformed? I do not know as I guess there are some willing to the high price but how informed they are is not known to me. What is certain though is there are not enough people willing to pay once the price is too high for the locals and a club becomes reliant on tourists. Tourists are not going to go to the second tier clubs in any number and clearly P&N could not bring in enough greenfees to cover costs.


Hope this is clearer to you this time,


Jon

« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 03:43:29 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2018, 04:07:06 AM »
If Tom is talking about where I think he is, it would be madness to have rack rate green fees as low as €50.


I suspect N&P struggle in much the same way as they do in Belmullet as both are off the beaten path. It is not about setting an attractive green fee for the locals. The locals have such a small population that they are all members of the golf club if they want to play at all. Aside from member rounds, most visitors are probably walk-ins from those vacationing in the area or day trippers from other golf clubs or societies in the county or surrounds. The latter will pay rack-rate rarely. Pre-booked visitors from further afield (those most likely to pay rack rate) are quite a small percentage of the income but a very important percentage. These are the numbers (along with walk-ins) that fluctuated greatly between the height of the boom (2006) and bottom of the bust (2011).

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2018, 04:44:48 AM »
Jon

It is quite easy to set rates lower for members of GUI...I think this is a common approach to attract the Irish just as is the case in England with the members of England Golf.  How a club like N&P attracts "walk ins" with an 80 Euro fee is another matter.

The bottom line is the club rolled the dice with borrowing money for things that weren't necessary and got caught out. They might have been better served creating a dormy house given the dearth of nearby places to stay.  I believe we paid 40-50 Euros when I was there in 2014. Jumping to 80 Euros a few years later is bad price management and smells of either desperation or greed. Either way, it rankles me when clubs jack prices so suddenly and gives me all the incentive I need not to return unless I really like the place.

Ciao
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 10:33:38 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jack Carney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2018, 10:03:23 AM »
It always starts with a &$%# clubhouse!!!

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2018, 10:37:26 AM »
The world is going crazy when golfers think €130 is “great value” for a local links that isn’t even in the GB&I top 100.
Cave Nil Vino

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed! New
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2018, 11:20:21 AM »
At this point I almost feel a better marketing plan would be to charge exorbitant fees so that only the most fortunate visitors can afford to play. Say something like 350 Euro. Then the travelling golf fraternity that likes to live in their own little bubbles in the middle of nowhere playing places 98% of the golfing world can’t afford will praise it for being the most amazing remote golf experience in the world.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 01:16:00 AM by Frank M »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2018, 11:34:53 AM »
Chappers

Do ya think N&P should be top 100?  I think so, but it is really not the point.  Clubs will charge what they think they can get away with.   

FrankM

Out of curiosity, why is £110 your cut-off? Do you have some numbers to suggest this should be the cut-off?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Frank M

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed! New
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2018, 11:51:36 AM »

FrankM

Out of curiosity, why is £110 your cut-off? Do you have some numbers to suggest this should be the cut-off?

Ciao


That’s just IMO and simply what I feel “top tier” golf is worth.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2024, 01:15:04 AM by Frank M »

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2018, 01:19:03 PM »
The world is going crazy when golfers think €130 is “great value” for a local links that isn’t even in the GB&I top 100.


It’s not going crazy, it is crazy.


IMO 130 Euro/110 Pounds is what the most expensive golf course in GB&I should cost...$150 US/CAN here in North America.


My contested opinion has been that this current generation of minamilist golf, the second golden age, or whatever you want to call it, where golfers need to travel hours into the middle of nowhere to pay enormous sums of money to play golf, does nothing for the game overall. We are quick to criticize everything in golf that doesn’t “grow the game,” but then in the next breath everyone is hailing each of these golf courses as the greatest thing since sliced bread.


Of course N&P isn’t a modern course but I’ve seen it change from a local, little known course when I first played it for 25 Euros into this marketed “travel” course part of a group of courses in a region everyone NEEDS to travel to. Seeing golfers travel elsewhere and pay hundreds of $’s to play on the moon probably didn’t help the situation.


At this point I almost feel a better marketing plan would be to charge exorbitant fees so that only the most fortunate visitors can afford to play. Say something like 350 Euro. Then the travelling golf fraternity that likes to live in their own little worlds in the middle of nowhere playing places 98% of the golfing world can’t afford will praise it for being the most amazing remote golf experience in the world.


Frank-Those are some spot on observations and the answer may lie somewhere between upping the membership rates while decreasing visitor greens fees. Jon Wigget notes that he thought the annual membership rate is somewhere around $600 at N&P so the idea that a visitor has to pay $150 in high season seems crazy. That said if it’s on someone’s radar that is traveling from a foreign country or outside the area then it becomes a “When n Rome” scenario or must see. The model is different in the U.S. in that you are going to pay either an unaccompanied rate or a guest rate at a private club with no consideration for being a local resident which seems to be the case in GB&I. I like that the clubs take care of their own across the pond. I don’t like the idea of going to 15 holes and hope they get it worked out as it seems like a fun and interesting course to play. Once a course makes its way onto certain lists or garners some sort of hidden gem status there are those intrepid travelers that will make it a must play although many times just a one off to check the box. I don’t know what role tour operators play in getting some of these courses onto the “must play” rota although I would think there would be incentives for same. This is not a knock on the tour operators as that is the way of the world regardless of whether we are talking about hotels, restaurants, wineries, museums, distillery’s etc.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 01:20:38 PM by Tim Martin »

BCowan

Re: Narin & Portnoo GC closed!
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2018, 01:27:59 PM »
The world is going crazy when golfers think €130 is “great value” for a local links that isn’t even in the GB&I top 100.


It’s not going crazy, it is crazy.


IMO 130 Euro/110 Pounds is what the most expensive golf course in GB&I should cost...$150 US/CAN here in North America.


My contested opinion has been that this current generation of minamilist golf, the second golden age, or whatever you want to call it, where golfers need to travel hours into the middle of nowhere to pay enormous sums of money to play golf, does nothing for the game overall. We are quick to criticize everything in golf that doesn’t “grow the game,” but then in the next breath everyone is hailing each of these golf courses as the greatest thing since sliced bread.


Of course N&P isn’t a modern course but I’ve seen it change from a local, little known course when I first played it for 25 Euros into this marketed “travel” course part of a group of courses in a region everyone NEEDS to travel to. Seeing golfers travel elsewhere and pay hundreds of $’s to play on the moon probably didn’t help the situation.


At this point I almost feel a better marketing plan would be to charge exorbitant fees so that only the most fortunate visitors can afford to play. Say something like 350 Euro. Then the travelling golf fraternity that likes to live in their own little worlds in the middle of nowhere playing places 98% of the golfing world can’t afford will praise it for being the most amazing remote golf experience in the world.

Frank,

+1000, It's refreshing to see someone other then me with principals, $150 is my number too!  The easy money QE racket will end soon.  You are seeing more people in the US looking at National memberships an hr from their home that are half or more then full memberships.  They can have club life, nice family vacations, and no guilt.