[Jon Wiggett]

Jon: Have you looked at the Oregon resident rate for Bandon Dunes?

No Jerry.

[Kalen Braley]

Jon: Have you looked at the Oregon resident rate for Bandon Dunes?

No Jerry.

Got butchered in the copy and paste, but here is the gist.....


Jan
March
April
May
June
July - Sept
Oct
Nov 1 - 18
Nov 19 - Dec



$100
$125
$150
$175
$200
250
n/a
$250
$175
$100

[Jon Wiggett]

Kalen,


still not seeing the relevance.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,


still not seeing the relevance.

Perhaps he is suggesting that locals at N&P can afford more, given the rates for locals at Bandon....but you would need to clarify with him.


P.S.  I  think the GB&I private model is terrific, and I suspect many Americans club would benefit if they adopted it.   But maybe what JK said years ago is true..."Private Clubs in America are more about who you can keep out"

[Jon Wiggett]

Kalen,


if that is his point then it would seem a pretty stupid one given the apparent lack of uptake last year. JK quote is a little to 'build the wall' mentality for my liking though.


Culture is a mind set not a bank balance!

[BCowan]

Kalen,


if that is his point then it would seem a pretty stupid one given the apparent lack of uptake last year. JK quote is a little to 'build the wall' mentality for my liking though.


Culture is a mind set not a bank balance!

+1, and you guys are ''We are the innovators, They are the imitators'' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tngOSBtDP0M


"Private Clubs in America are more about who you can keep out"

The more affordable a course is the more candidates that can afford to be a member, thus the more picky a club can be with keeping bad apples out.  There are places with this mindset that are in a death spiral.  Usually the asshole % is much higher at places like this.  Jkava gets this one wrong.  He seems to long to be in that secret society

[Jerry Kluger]

Jon: You pointed out that locals at Castle Stuart pay 60 Pounds which you believe to be affordable.  I will now explain my points to you:
1. When dealing only with affordability is 60 Pounds so much more affordable than 80 Euros? Don't tell me that Castle Stuart is a better course as the question is cost to play.
2. Based upon the rates for Oregon residents at Bandon there is no reason to believe that the rates at Coul Links for residents will be anywhere near the rates at Castle Stuart.

[Jon Wiggett]

Ben,


I concur totally.


Jerry,


If that is what you believe then you do not grasp the concept of local markets. P&N at 80 euros was clearly not so popular with the locals and so above the threshold that they were willing to pay. CS however is clearly correct at £60 judging by the number of local greenfee players. It is not opinion, it is fact but for an opinion CS is certainly regarded as a better course by most for what it is worth.


For your second point. Embo is not in the USA. Anyone who has followed the whole Coul Links development knows that a big part of the concept is including the locals in the whole scheme which includes others doing the accommodation and intergrating playing at the other local courses into the whole concept. Bandon links  seems to be a self contained resort which wants to keep the money in house. Coul Links, like CS has a regional concept. There is every reason to believe that the local rates will be similar as the concept has worked very well at CS.


Jon

[Garland Bayley]

... Bandon links  seems to be a self contained resort which wants to keep the money in house. ...

My impression (and I may be totally wrong) is that Bandon links is a cash cow that allows Keiser to continue his exploits in course development elsewhere.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have played quite a few of the big name courses as well as a number of the other quality courses without the big reputation and my observations are that the buses and groups pull up to the big name courses and then leave the area except for perhaps St Andrews. The proposed concept of Coul Links with respect to other courses in the area is only that, a concept, and there is nothing that one could point to which demonstrates that the concept will in fact come to fruition.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jerry,


I think that because the concept is so ingrained in the whole concept for the Coul Links and the fact the region as a whole is actively involved it will be implemented. However, you are correct that there is no way of knowing if it will work but after all 'if you don't try you never know'. I mean, who thought Bandon Links was a good idea at the time it was first built?


Jon

[Ally Mcintosh]

Open again, clubhouse renovations continue and an architect appointed to draw up a master plan... not sure who that is though...

[Sean_A]

Open again, clubhouse renovations continue and an architect appointed to draw up a master plan... not sure who that is though...

Curious...would you have been interested in redesigning N&P? 

Ciao

[Charles Lund]

A couple of things to remember about rates for many of the lower tier links courses:


1. Some offer reductions to members of GUI clubs.
2.  Others, particularly those which are part of the North and West Coast Links group offer half off to members of other clubs in the group.
3.  Some have regular open competitions with sizeable rate reductions.
4.  Some have Society Days, where you can pay a small  one off fee and get a rate reduction.


So a green fee paid by an in country player probably is lower than the posted rate.


I sent an email to Trump Doonbeg, asking them if they offered a GUI rate.  I got a reply saying GUI members can play for the same rate as other players.  I wonder how much of their play involves players who live in Ireland, who are not employees.


I am glad to hear Narin and Portnoo reopened.  I will get over there in June.


Charles Lund

[jeffwarne]

Open again, clubhouse renovations continue and an architect appointed to draw up a master plan... not sure who that is though...

Curious...would you have been interested in a redesigning N&P? 

Ciao

I'm confident Ally could've designed a mean new clubhouse
cause surely that didn't work the first time....


Narin and Portnoo was once a very popular course with visiting Europeans and really simple, quirky and cool.
Run on a shoestring with a full membership.
The recent (not run on a shoestring) clubhouse and course changes made it bigger and less unique, leaving intact many of the cool holes and adding a few sloggish ones.And have bankrupted the club leaving its future in the hands of others.


A further redesign terrifies me as it seems a race to homogonization.


I really hope I'm wrong.....

[Ally Mcintosh]

Open again, clubhouse renovations continue and an architect appointed to draw up a master plan... not sure who that is though...

Curious...would you have been interested in a redesigning N&P? 

Ciao

N&P is the one Irish Links I don’t know so I can’t really answer that.


Generally I think iconic top tier links, especially those by top name golden age architects, should be left untouched.


Sometimes I think there are obvious improvements that can be made to lesser known, second tier gems. However, to Jeff’s point, I am only interested if I can de-homogenise rather than the opposite. So quirk stays.... bland might go and that includes poor bunker placement which is so often the curse of some lesser known courses...


Bottom line, if something can be made more individual, more interesting and more quirky and it’s the obvious and right thing to do, then change can be good...


But I don’t think many architects think the same way as me about our links courses. And that frustrates me...

[John Mayhugh]

Sometimes I think there are obvious improvements that can be made to lesser known, second tier gems. However, to Jeff’s point, I am only interested if I can de-homogenise rather than the opposite. So quirk stays.... bland might go and that includes poor bunker placement which is so often the curse of some lesser known courses...

Bottom line, if something can be made more individual, more interesting and more quirky and it’s the obvious and right thing to do, then change can be good...

Great comments.

Add me to the anti-homogenization side. What's the point in traveling to see golf courses if all you get is sameness?

[Dónal Ó Ceallaigh]

I think the issue of €80 green fees is a non-isuue in this case. Locals are either members, or are members in Cruit of Doneagal or somewhere in the North. Locals will never pay green fees as there are so many opportunities to play these courses at cheaper "Open Day" rates or for free.


In all my years playing golf in Donegal, I never heard of anybody paying a green fees to play another Donegal (or Derry or Tyrone) course. If you're a pensioner in Donegal, you can play in seniors competition held regularly at nearly all the courses. I think it costs around €10 to play in these competitions. You can play many of them in senior, junior or intermediate scratch cups, Open Days, Open Weeks, Mid-Week competitions (for example Dunfanaghy's 14 hole competition) for a fraction of the cost.


Then we get to the inter-club competitions where you play for free (and if you're feeling cheeky, you can call around to the club and play a practice round many days beforehand). There's a Donegal Senior Scratch League, a Donegal Senior Leage and a Donegal Minor League. There are so many inter-club competitions, it's mind boggling. Then you have the Ulster GUI (Junior Cup, Pierce Purcell, Jimmy Bruen, etc.) competitions where, if you're drawn against a biggie like Royal County Down, you also play for free!! When it comes to inter-club competitions, Ireland is just crazy. In winter you also have the North West Alliance where you can play all the 18 holes courses for a small amount. So, locals do not pay green fees, not even the the GUI rate.

[John Mayhugh]

On Instagram yesterday, Gil Hanse posted that he is preparing a master plan for Narin & Portnoo.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6Uj8QlSEh/?taken-by=gil_hanse

[Jay Mickle]

On Instagram yesterday, Gil Hanse posted that he is preparing a master plan for Narin & Portnoo.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Bg6Uj8QlSEh/?taken-by=gil_hanse

Good news

[jeffwarne]

Good for Gil.
Good that the course is going to survive.


...but this makes me sad in a way.


Once upon a time this was the ULTIMATE hidden gem,a bastion of homespun quirk, plugging along with a happy membership and a favorite of Continental Europeans on holiday.
Only when they sought to get bigger and better(clubhouse and yardage)-did the problems arise.


I guess "progress" is inevitable, but I'm not sure the members will be any happier with a modern redesign and a lot full of touring buses than they were with a balanced (albeit tiny)budget and a rollicking fun quirky interesting course 20 years ago.


Is it really better to be a member of Ballybunion now than it was pre Watson acclaim?

[Thomas Dai]

So they have to close essentially coz their lacking money. And then they reopen. And then Gil Hanse is hired to presumably upgrade things. Where’s the money coming from?
Atb

[Jon Wiggett]

So they have to close essentially coz their lacking money. And then they reopen. And then Gil Hanse is hired to presumably upgrade things. Where’s the money coming from?
Atb

Thomas,


I thought exactly the same thing.

[Garland Bayley]

So they have to close essentially coz their lacking money. And then they reopen. And then Gil Hanse is hired to presumably upgrade things. Where’s the money coming from?
Atb

They are owned by some rich American, No?
Wasn't the closure more about access to some land?

[jeffwarne]

I believe an Irishman bought it from an American hedge fund who had bought the debt.(heve been follwing the news but may have missed a more recent development)
I guess he has the money, but isn't interested in operating a low key members club on a tight budget, but rather wants another "destination" to attract more high priced outside play....


a cautionary tale for memebrs who seek high priced amenities but perhaps a great course will emerge which will make a majority happy and just bother a few of us selfish curmudgeons who will miss the simplicity.

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