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Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
18th hole into the sun
« on: March 04, 2018, 06:09:34 PM »
I'm certain we have discussed this before, but I think an 18th hole that finishes into the sun is lazy architecture and lacks any foresight. Both Hatton and Mickelson were up and out of their approaches, although they should have known better.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2018, 12:06:34 AM »
At my course we have 1 and the range into a morning sun and 18 into setting sun. Only a problem a few times a year for a few minutes a day. Seems like bad planning.

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2018, 01:42:25 AM »
Surely it depends on what time of day you're playing.


Most golfers seem to prefer a morning start, finishing before lunch or early afternoon. I'm an habitual late afternoon player, so am finishing as the sun is low in the sky.


My problems with a setting sun in my eyes would never occur to the bulk of players.


Alwoodley however, is notorious for finishing into the setting sun. The final two holes both face due west. It's a wonder the bloke ever got to design a golf course again!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 01:46:17 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2018, 04:23:42 AM »
This is mainly a winter issue.  The worst course I know for this Sherwood Forest.  Its a slaughterfest for several holes coming home.  There is a way to re-number the holes so problem is reduced...

I don't know enough about course routing to know if finishing in the low sun is poor planning.  My guess is sometimes it could be avoided and other times not so much.  I would need to know specifics about the project making a call....and I simply don't care enough to find out.  Either it bugs me to the point where I make sure I play the course at the best times or not.  I have yet to play a course where I planned for sunset  ;)

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2018, 06:56:21 AM »
It has been discussed before and mentioned in books like the Anatomy of a GC.  Add in most 18ths are a get you home hole and most 1sts are a get you away hole running in parallel and you will have early morning problems too.
 
It’s bad where its avoidable.   
Let's make GCA grate again!

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2018, 07:05:15 AM »
Yeah nothing screams lazy architecture like Donald Ross and Pinehurst No 2.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun New
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2018, 07:34:12 AM »
18th at the Cascades finishes in a mostly southern orientation.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 09:33:01 PM by Carl Rogers »
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2018, 08:34:11 AM »

There is an old rule of thumb that the clubhouse is best set at the noon position on the site, and gets worse as you go around the clock.  In reality, anywhere from noon to six or maybe even 7-8 is pretty good. 


Sometimes (especially on multi course sites like Pinehurst) the clubhouse is set by someone else, or general situation, a la, the only good road comes in from the NW.  And, if the clubhouse is on the western edge to NW corner of the site, 1 and 18 running into the sun is very likely.


I once lost a pretty important commission on this issue by pointing out that simple fact when the Owner, for reasons of their own, preferred the NW corner.  Lost another by proposing a mile road across the site to get a more favorable sun position.  Obviously, most budgets, done generically before design, don't include excessive budgets for entry, etc.  You may note Ross did several clubhouses in the corners. I am pretty sure that was a combo of Scottish frugality and most logical entry point from all POV other than sun orientation while playing golf.


And the setting sun is an issue all times of year, just for slightly different hole orientations.  At some point in the day, the sun gets low in the sky, and if a hole runs right into it, it will have problems. In summer, that is actually the NW orientation, and with the lower sun angle in winter, more west and even southwest.  So considering sun angles might be a little different on an AZ or similar winter venue than somewhere in MN, for example.


I think I once posted about the importance of sun angles, and if memory serves, was roundly accused of following too many design rules.  Ah, yeah.  As with most design rules, there is a reason that they came to be rules after about 500 years experience.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2018, 10:07:57 AM »
The 18th at Pebble Beach plays dead west into the setting sun.  (As Mr Dye said: the TV cameras face the other way, so it's perfect.)


Sometimes it's inevitable from the position of the clubhouse that it's going to happen, especially if the site runs predominantly east to west.  If you put the clubhouse in the middle, like Barnbougle, you have to choose whether the first hole will play into the morning sun or the last hole into the setting sun. (We chose the latter there, more because of the prevailing wind.)


Sometimes these "architecture 101" ideas are overridden by reality ... and it's annoying when someone tells you you've made a mistake on something that had to be that way!

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2018, 11:19:48 AM »
Tom stole my thunder.  I was going to mention Pebble and what a dog meat track it is cause they were too lazy to do it right....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 11:21:55 AM »
I guess you could say a potential go for it par 5 into the setting sun only heightens the drama of not knowing where your ball went without someone to tell you.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18th hole into the sun
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2018, 02:54:21 PM »
Thanks for your replies. It seems clear that I didn't. Put as much thought into the post as I should have.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

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