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Mike Wagner

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Polararizing Holes
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2018, 09:46:42 AM »
15 at Kingsley is divisive, too.  (I like it. Don't like 9.)


18 at Cypress Point is not that divisive. (Same for the 9th at The Old Course.)  Nobody thinks it's great; some just don't think it should be dismissed as awful, and half of those people are just avoiding saying anything negative about the course.  Similarly, I think many big name architects get a pass on this as people are reluctant to go too far out on a limb criticizing one of their holes.


I can't even think of what is the most divisive hole I have built.  I'm curious to hear nominations.


Pac Dunes #1 & #16


#1 woulds get a lot more discussion if it wasn't the 1st hole (mulligans).  Feels like I'm usually playing a BB match when I'm there, and there are always 2 BIP on #16.

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Polarizing Holes
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2018, 04:18:27 PM »
The discussion is wide ranging and healthy, but I've got to offer a little balance to this talk of ANGC holes (12, 15... whichever) and how ANGC is great (or singularly able to pull it off) because it lives on the edge of polarizing/heretical....


THAT, imo, is a maintenance discussion, not a design discussion. And one that gets its oxygen only since 1979-80, when the course/greens were re-grassed, and it started to take this razors edge tolerance...and moreso since the post 1998 amendments/artifices were made to the course...

I concede that the 2018 iteration of the course and the behavior of razor tolerance results of a moving ball would be mind-blowing and create howls if they appeared more frequently...but the design of the 15th isn't "controversial" in and of itself ...balls used to hang up on the bank and not go careening into water long...Mr Abernathy and his 23 handicap could still finish the hole... 12 was always a demanding small target through swirling winds, but the "design bones" of it were in many "unpolarizing" holes extant and ones that developed in the time well before it was a televised, international design influence of any kind... 7 and 11 weren't always beasts that the common man wouldn't play well.


And though design alterations, rest-O-vations are part of the discussion too...the kind of polarization one might intuit from ANGC and the results of shots played in the Masters is much more the maintenance result of an inch of miss than anything having to do with the design.


cheers  vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Polararizing Holes
« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2018, 09:49:13 AM »
I am defining a “polarizing hole” as one where admirers and detractors are roughly split. But also a hole where passions tend to run hot.
 
Tom Doak went right after the par-3 ninth at Kingsley as an example of one he doesn’t care for. And truthfully, it is a little bastard of a hole, but after two times playing it (and carrying a 500 batting average as a result) I think it’s brilliant! Isn't having one or two polarizing holes an important ingredient to be included in any good design.

...

If Mike had had the ability to move Augusta National’s 15th hole faithfully and in its entirety to Sunningdale – and without telling our membership where it came from  – I think they would absolutely hate it! When you think about it...a downhill shot to a narrow domed green with water in front and with some water also behind: 25% of our golfers wouldn't be able to make a score. Call it the Augusta National exemption, which means anywhere else the 15th at ANGC falls under the “polarizing hole” label. (And while I'm at it, throw in the 12th as well!)
 
Two brilliant holes that approach the “Heretical Precipice" is what makes Augusta National great.


For starters, the 15th at Augusta is a pretty bad hole, the way it's presented today.  I don't think you would find it passes your test of 50% of people admiring it, even with the strong tendency of people to kowtow to a course that's been on TV forever.  But the 15th snuck up on its position over the years, while changing the hole and the maintenance of the hole over time. 


And still, the 15th at Augusta has never been considered "polarizing" by most people.  In fact, there are a lot of controversial elements at Augusta:  the approach to the 9th, the severe downhill slope of the 10th, the difficulty of the 12th, the green at the 14th, and others, but none of them [or maybe the 12th] has become the focal point of critics.  I think it's the same for Pacific Dunes:  lots of controversial features, but no single hole that people complain about later, like the 14th at Trails.


As to whether it's important for every course to have one or two polarizing holes, I think that's a bad metric.  Most "normal" courses [even good ones] don't have polarizing holes, and that's fine.  And it certainly wouldn't be good architecture to go into a course like that and introduce something really controversial just for the sake of having a polarizing hole.


The important thing is for architects not to be afraid of building something controversial or polarizing, if they really believe in it.

Michael J. Moss

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Polarizing Holes
« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2018, 04:29:17 PM »
“The important thing is for architects not to be afraid of building something controversial or polarizing, if they really believe in it.”

I do like that line.

Tom, your par-3 13th at Barnbougle, Sitwell Park…is a green that had the potential to polarize. I assume it has enjoyed a much better relationship with its golfers than the original MaKenzie version. I have only seen photos but it does look very cool. Did the buy in occur way before the dozers were released and upon completion, were you confident it would be embraced?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Polarizing Holes
« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2018, 04:52:49 PM »


Tom, your par-3 13th at Barnbougle, Sitwell Park…is a green that had the potential to polarize. I assume it has enjoyed a much better relationship with its golfers than the original MaKenzie version. I have only seen photos but it does look very cool. Did the buy in occur way before the dozers were released and upon completion, were you confident it would be embraced?




That green is somewhat polarizing ... I've had several people [usually golf pros] say they think it's terrible, because they found it almost impossible to get from some spot on the green to some other spot.  Others just love it, though it's only the third most talked-about hole at Barnbougle, after #7 and #4.  And maybe #8, which is also polarizing.


In my experience with the 13th, there are occasionally situations where you can't get your first putt close to the hole, usually if you've missed too deep into the green and have to putt back downhill.  But often people just don't look for the counter-slopes they could have used to get in the neighborhood.  Plus they aren't addressing how bad their approach shot was!  There are lots of golf holes in the world where missing the approach by sixty feet to the wrong side won't get you a par; in fact there are lots where you will be hitting three from the same place you hit your first tee shot!


The only buy-in regarding that hole was between me and Brian Schneider, who shaped it.  We didn't really ask the client for permission; I think I joked to him that the green might be controversial, but that was okay because if people didn't like it, it was so far away that nobody would come see it.  We used the distance as freedom to build what intrigued us.

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