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Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Riviera green speeds
« on: February 18, 2018, 09:08:23 PM »
According to the CBS telecast, the green speeds of the Riviera greens were 12.5+.  This seems excessively fast, especially considering the huge rolls which have been accentuated by sand build-up from sand thrown out of bunkers for years on many holes.  These green speeds are at least one reason for the complaints about the unplayability of the greens by the players as discussed in other threads on here.
This illustrates one of my pet complaints in modern golf.  Green speeds have become a macho thing at many clubs.  People brag with pride about how incredibly fast their greens are--I've heard people proud of their greens being over 14.  It's like they feel that super-fast greens make their course better--and them feel stronger and better.  In my mind excessive green speeds are wrecking play at many old courses with greens originally built for speeds of 6-8.  And it leads to boring golf, players playing excessively conservative and defensive, and taking away the excitement of skillful putting at many courses. 
I don't have any set speed that I think fits all courses--it obviously depends on the rolls of the greens, the size of the greens, the type of grass, etc.  But I do think that speeds much above 11 should be somewhat suspect--and may be there in many cases just so mainly male golfers can brag about the speed of their greens as a sign of their masculinity. 
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 10:51:00 AM by Jim Hoak »

Lyndell Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera green speeds
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 09:34:53 PM »
Jim I totally agree, the problem is if the tour keeps pushing the envelope thats what people want at the local level.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera green speeds
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 11:12:30 PM »
With greens that have some undulations anything in the double digits is tough for us amateurs, 12.5+ would be 4 putt range to any hole on a slope.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera green speeds
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2018, 08:04:22 AM »
Until The Masters and the US Open reverse the trend that they started, it seems unlikely that the issue will go away.


I am curious if slower green speeds might actually make it more difficult for the pros. They seldom have to use the kind of force that could make it more likely to throw a putt off line. I know this has been debated here before but not sure any data came forward.


Ira

John Blain

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera green speeds
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2018, 10:38:40 AM »
Jim +1  Great post.


Unfortunately just like you said fast greens are a badge of honor for both members and supers as well. Unfortunately when you have members @ Oakmont bragging that they "slow the greens down for the U.S. Open" it's going to be a problem.


A few years ago during the telecast for the U.S. Senior Open Curtis Strange made the following comment regarding green speeds: "You want to find out who the best putters are? Slow down the greens."  A lot of people would argue with that statement but I think Curtis is spot-on.


No one seems to ever want to talk about the downside of greens that are too fast for the slopes:


1) Slows down play.
2) Eliminates hole locations.
3) It's expensive.


Don't get me wrong, I don't mind fast greens but when they get faster than the architect intended then it's a problem.


Short story: A friend of mine was on a selection committee to hire a new super at a private club. He said the first question asked to all four final candidates was: "How fast can you get the greens?"


It's insanity but unfortunately the genie is out of the bottle.....


-JP

Bill Raffo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera green speeds
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 10:48:24 AM »
Big fan of the super at my home course. Keeps them consistent but not super fast until September, then he pushes the envelope when the weather is in his favor. Makes for a distinct season, where you're on edge over any putt pointing even slightly downhill.  Wouldn't want it like that all year because, as others have said, the greens were't built for the speed and what fun is it being asked to roll putts with no chance of stopping within a few feet of the hole, all year?

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera green speeds
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 11:34:28 AM »
I don't know...


What was winning number...-11?
Big cluster at -7 and -8 including Phil.The thread seems written like the winning score was -3 and there was a bloodbath.


In perfect 70 degree SoCal weather with little wind, what other defense can this course offer?
Sure, you need to be straight off the tee, but otherwise it's not hard - right from the first hole "give me a birdie please" "par 5".


If the greens were slower and/or softer, people would then be debating rolling the ball back as scores would be in high teens.


Faster greens and awkward pin positions present one of the last lines of defense to the relentless momentum of the strength and distance game of today. Bubba is a bomber for sure, but his putting and iron game were spot-on.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Riviera green speeds
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2018, 12:23:21 PM »
Ian, points well taken maybe for the .001% of the golf world that plays the Tour.  But what about the rest of us--who play golf for fun and recreation?  Should we suffer from insane green speeds just because they are needed for a few pros?  I don't think so.

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera green speeds
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2018, 01:13:45 PM »
Ian, points well taken maybe for the .001% of the golf world that plays the Tour.  But what about the rest of us--who play golf for fun and recreation?  Should we suffer from insane green speeds just because they are needed for a few pros?  I don't think so.


Sorry, Jim, perhaps I misunderstood. Thought you were referring to the green speeds at the event.
I would bet that they play at 10.5 for members.


This tournament easily could have seen rain and 60 degrees.
Fairways were firm and greens were fast.


Well-struck drives were bouncing down FWs and sometimes into rough making it hard for players to hold the greens.
Exactly as it should be.


Reminded me of playing conditions at an Australian sand-belt course.

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