Another Distance thread...but now it looks like the R&A is getting serious

[Doug Siebert]

One thing that could make golf more fun for me would be to reduce the distance the ball traveled so I could clearly see where it lands off fairway, thereby removing some of the ball searching and lost ball penalties.

This would be one benefit to losing some of the ridiculous distance big headed drivers and the Pro V1X gave me 15 years ago, if it weren't for the fact that my eyes have got worse due to age more quickly than I've lost distance due to age! 

[Doug Siebert]

Have any of you ever wondered why you hit such fantastic shots during a scramble? Having a pro at the top of his game as your partner would be no different. There is a huge leap between visualizing a shot and seeing your partner execute it in front of you. Even the pros often feed off each other when one or the other gets hot. It's a vibe that an athlete like LF would know too well.

I think it more due to lack of consequences. A poor golfer who is shooting first knows he has three people backing him up so he feels no pressure, a good golfer who is shooting last usually has a playable shot already out there so he can go for broke without fear.


There's no pressure like taking a direct line to a par 4 green across a lake when three playing partners are already wet...did that last year and made it dry by two feet - there must have been a lot more wind up there than we could feel! 

[Matthew Essig]

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/2/20/and-then-mike-davis-told-jack-were-going-to-get-there-on-bal.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


Sounds like the USGA may have made this one of their top priorities, but the R&A are still on the fence.


Though, it is weird to say one of their top priorities when the biggest rulebook change in decades is supposed to happen next year, too.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Sounds like the USGA may have made this one of their top priorities, but the R&A are still on the fence.

That article didn't even make entirely clear whether they were talking about slow play or distance. Some people I talked to thought it was more about slow play.

[Matthew Essig]

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/2/21/jack-nicklaus-singles-out-titleist-in-distance-debate.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

http://www.golfchannel.com/article/golf-central-blog/nicklaus-eager-help-usga-rein-golf-ball-distance/

You still think its about slow play? Its obvious that distance is the topic here and on the mind of Jack in the interview at The Honda Classic this week.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

You still think its about slow play?

What exactly did Jack have to say about the distance the ball was traveling in 1977?

All I said was that the article was not very clear. And… Mike Davis seems to agree with whomever he's with at the time.

[Garland Bayley]

Erik,

I didn't see anything in the article specifying Jack was against the ball in 1977. You are drawing unwarranted conclusions.

[Jeff Schley]

Erik,

I didn't see anything in the article specifying Jack was against the ball in 1977. You are drawing unwarranted conclusions.

Jack said he has been yelling at them for 40 years so that takes us back to the 70's.

[Garland Bayley]

Erik,

I didn't see anything in the article specifying Jack was against the ball in 1977. You are drawing unwarranted conclusions.

Jack said he has been yelling at them for 40 years so that takes us back to the 70's.

There's lots to yell at the USGA about, so it wasn't necessarily about the ball. And, the TopFlite was exceedingly long with optimization,  and the USGA knew it, so it could have been the ball.

[Bob Montle]

Jack spoke out in 1979 about his feeling that the "current" ball was going too far.
This was a week or two after David Graham won the PGA at Oakland Hills, and Jack was giving talks and demonstrations at the Country Club in Grand Rapids Michigan.

He spoke about how the best courses in the world were being put out of fashion by the lengths obtainable by new equipment.  He pulled some golf balls out of his bag and proceeded to hit some incredible shots.  He curved them left and right around trees and hit some high shots which dropped straight down.  These balls, he said, would showcase the skilled shotmakers like Tommy Armour as opposed to the current fashion of having to just hit the ball long and straight.

With these balls, the ball manufactures could do whatever they wanted with dimples and aerodynamics and liveliness as long as the balls passed two simple tests:  They had to pass through a standard ring of 1.68" diameter -
and -
They had to float in 70 degree water!

He said amateurs should be able to use whatever balls they wanted but the professionals should be required to use floaters.

He even suggested having one standard ball for the USGA to provide to all competitors at tournaments.

He was indeed calling for a shorter ball almost 40 years ago.

[Garland Bayley]

Thanks Bob.

Do you have a reference where I can learn more?

[BCrosby]

The "floater" has an interesting history. Pre-WWI you see numerous adds for floaters. They were promoted  as the best balls for winter play and easier for weaker players to get airborne. I assume lots were sold.


When the USGA and the R&A got together to regulate balls in 1920/21, the R&A urged adoption of the floater at the time. John Low and Crumbo Croome were early advocates. So was J H Taylor and most of the British pros.


The USGA disagreed. The two bodies finally settled on minimum diameter and maximum weight standards that would then endure a tangled, sordid history into modern times.


Bob

[Bob Montle]

Thanks Bob.

Do you have a reference where I can learn more?

I'm sorry Garland, but I do not.   I'm writing from memory, as I attended his demonstrations.
Back then, I was an Arnie fan and resented Jack up until that day, but have been a fan ever since.

He had several common sense approaches to golf that I remember.
One was to always warm up or practice with your wedge first and driver last.
He also said to never ground your club before swinging.  Since you hadn't addressed the ball until you grounded your club, if you whiffed or if the ball moved, then you wouldn't be penalized.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Erik,

I didn't see anything in the article specifying Jack was against the ball in 1977. You are drawing unwarranted conclusions.

Jack said he has been yelling at them for 40 years so that takes us back to the 70's.

There's lots to yell at the USGA about, so it wasn't necessarily about the ball. And, the TopFlite was exceedingly long with optimization,  and the USGA knew it, so it could have been the ball.

Did you read the original article, Garland? Here's a direct quote from the article:

"Nicklaus said he first confronted the USGA in 1977 over ball and distance issues."

He also said to never ground your club before swinging.  Since you hadn't addressed the ball until you grounded your club, if you whiffed or if the ball moved, then you wouldn't be penalized.

I think whiffs have counted as strokes for quite some time. http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1970.html#Stroke

[JMEvensky]

One was to always warm up or practice with your wedge first and driver last.

Bob, I'm guessing we're about the same age and I was also pro-AP and anti-JN so I might have my memory clouded by bias. But I swear I learned the idea of warming up PW to driver from AP. We all did this as juniors--same as we all putted knock-kneed.

[Garland Bayley]

Erik,

I didn't see anything in the article specifying Jack was against the ball in 1977. You are drawing unwarranted conclusions.

Jack said he has been yelling at them for 40 years so that takes us back to the 70's.

There's lots to yell at the USGA about, so it wasn't necessarily about the ball. And, the TopFlite was exceedingly long with optimization,  and the USGA knew it, so it could have been the ball.

Did you read the original article, Garland? Here's a direct quote from the article:

"Nicklaus said he first confronted the USGA in 1977 over ball and distance issues."

He also said to never ground your club before swinging.  Since you hadn't addressed the ball until you grounded your club, if you whiffed or if the ball moved, then you wouldn't be penalized.

I think whiffs have counted as strokes for quite some time. http://www.ruleshistory.com/rules1970.html#Stroke

Sorry,

I read the article linked in #77.

Somehow the timing of following "New replies" I was skipped over the other linked articles.

What ball was he confronting them over? Bob's story would imply TopFlite, as it flew straighter.

[JESII]

Garland, you're looking to regulate decision making as opposed to equipment. I think that would prove difficult.

[Matt MacIver]

I thought Jack liked to warm up first with his Driver - slow, big swings to get all the body parts going...?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland, you're looking to regulate decision making as opposed to equipment. I think that would prove difficult.

I don't understand what you mean.

[Jeff Schley]

Just checked out the littany of stats the tour is keeping now, a geek's paradise!  Driving distance was the stat, but the average drive carry is very interesting as it determines if you can fly a hazard or not. I knew Mickelson hit the ball high, but he gets almost no roll as his average drive is 299 total. Of course these are only the holes where they measure the driving distance.

RANK THIS WEEK	RANK LAST WEEK	PLAYER NAME	ROUNDS	AVG.	TOTAL DIST. TO IMPACT	TOTAL ATTEMPTS	LONGEST CARRY DISTANCE	SHORTEST CARRY DISTANCE
1	2	Tom Lovelady	29	303.2	6,064.0	20	327.2	265.7
T2	T4	Brandon Hagy	10	302.3	2,418.7	8	327.5	271.6
T2	T4	Trey Mullinax	21	302.3	4,232.1	14	328.1	277.8
4	3	Luke List	35	302.0	5,133.9	17	318.3	248.2
5	6	Sam Burns	10	300.0	2,099.8	7	324.0	267.6
6	7	Keith Mitchell	30	299.6	5,993.0	20	322.3	262.9
7	9	Gary Woodland	31	299.1	4,486.2	15	332.0	266.1
8	8	Tony Finau	30	298.8	5,378.0	18	321.4	275.4
9	11	Phil Mickelson	27	298.2	4,473.0	15	316.3	269.9
10	12	Jon Rahm	24	297.5	3,867.4	13	321.7	263.0

[Matthew Essig]

Today was a busy day....


The USGA/R&A Distance Report
http://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2018/2017-distance-report-final.pdf


The USGA/R&A Press Release
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/3/5/usga-ra-need-more-study-now-working-in-the-spirit-of-their-line-in-the-sand?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


The PGA TOUR stance
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/3/5/commish-monahan-to-players-you-are-not-hitting-the-ball-significantly-longer-but-you-are-younger-and-taller?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter


PGA of America stance
https://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2018/3/5/pga-of-america-ceo-were-against-a-rollback-before-the-rollback-was-proposed?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[Jeff Schley]

Matt good resources.

There are several stakeholders and of those you highlighted the two principal players are the USGA/RA & the PGA Tour.  I'm not sure how much influence the PGA of America can have.

The USGA/RA can regulate specs for the entire population (minus a couple regions).  Whereas the PGA Tour can make their own rules for their tournament players, potentially rolling back (I doubt) or just continue to "study" the issue.

The one left out which can have quite a bit of influence is Augusta National and what they can potentially do at the Masters tourney.  They have been dumping millions into renovations for close to 20 years now, so not sure how serious they would be about rolling back the ball, but they very easily could become the first to create action elsewhere.