"Lost Credit Common In The Course Design Game"

[Mike_Young]

Derek,


That is typically the case, but in the go go 90's, there were many uneducated folks and cities jumping in the golf biz.


In some cases, I saw the culprits as those golf management/build/ operators who sold cities on courses funded basically with junk bonds, when cities couldn't pass revenue or G.O. bonds.  They were issued based on studies showing they would make increasing profits forever, leading to some of the fall out today.


But, as MY will tell you, there are apparently culprits to go around the entire industry...... I DON'T KNOW ANY MORE OR LESS CULPRITS THAN THE NEXT GUY.  I THINK MOST GUYS ARE BASICALLY GOOD IN THE DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION PART OF THE INDUSTRY...MANAGEMENT COMPANIES STILL CONCERN ME..LOTS OF SMOKE AND MIRRORS THERE...


That said, this thread started as a discussion about what is appropriate credit for various entities involved, lead architect, name architect, main project architect, supplementary project draftsman, etc.  If it were really a big issue, someone would have applied some brain power to create some system.  But it isn't, and like our court cases, nearly every situation is a little bit different.  WE SEE THIS DIFFERENTLY...ITS SIMPLE FOR ME...THE COMPANY THAT GOT THE JOB GETS THE CREDIT....THE TALENTS AND SKILLS OF THE TEAM CAN BE APPRECIATED BUT THAT DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING IN MY MIND.


I do agree with Mike that it can be hard to sort out when formerly aligned parties go separate ways.  When people are selling, they tout their experience.  I have been in pre-construction bid meetings where a farmer claimed credit for a pretty famous course.  Wadsworth was at the meeting and nearly exploded, because he was merely hired hourly to run the tractor to seed some fairways. I HAVE FOUND THE BEST WAY TO FIND IF SOME DUDE IS BSing ON HIS DESIGN ABILITIES IS TO ASK THE SHAPERS...  WHAT PISSES ME OFF MORE THAN ANY OF THIS IS SOME YOUNG ASSOCIATE WITH ASGCA CREDENTIALS TRIES TO CALL YOU "CHEAP" BECAUSE YOU KNOW HOW TO GET THE SAME PRODUCT WITH THE SAME SPECS FOR MUCH LESS MONEY BUT YET THE "ASGCA CERTIFIED DUDE" WANTS TO MAKE SURE HE COVERED THE PRICING FOR SOME GCBAA CONTRACTOR....THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM...


It even happened to me once, and I strive to avoid problems.  Jim Colbert told a potential client something like "I was the guy who really designed Kemper Lakes" and it made the papers and is still probably found on the internet today.  I called my mentors to apologize for the indiscretion (since Colbert had jumped their ship when I left on my own, it still didn't appease them, really)  I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL...IT HAPPENS...ONCE HAD A PAST ASGCA PREZ TELL A GROUP WANTING TO RESTORE A LOCAL PROJEC TTHAT HE WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN THE STATE "CERTIFIED BY THE ASGCA" TO DO SUCH A PROJECT AND THAT THE REST OF US WERE JACKLEGS....ALL OF THE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE IN THE ROOM BELIEVED IT....UNTIL THEY INFOMED SOME OTHER GUYS LIKE ME...


And, I have had former associates cross the line (IMHO) on taking credit, blurring lines, etc. after they have gone out on their own.  You can only hope there is some restitution somewhere along the way, if you believe in the basic goodness of most people.  MOST PEOPLE DON'T SEE THE EMPLOYER IN A VERY GOOD LIGHT ONCE THEY LEAVE...EVEN ON GOOD TERMS...IT JUST HAPPENS...


And, you know, sometimes that kind of statement is true.  I got my first job because they guy in charge of the club committee had recently started his own business after being second in command, and was pre-disposed to think a young guy, just starting out, would charge a lower fee, had the experience and the energy to do them a good job.  Mike seems to think that guy, without knowing any facts, must have been hornswoggled somehow.  But, he knew what he was doing, knew the score, and made a decision that was right for him.  DON'T PUT WORDS I DON'T KNOW IN MY MOUTH ....I SAY ALL CAN GO FOR IT BUT IF THEY THROW OUT SOME FAKE CERTIFICATION ON THE CLIENT THEN I'M AL OVER IT....I LIKE THE PRESENT CONCEPT OF GROUPS OF TRAINED YOUNG GUYS THAT HAVE WORKED IN THE DIRT DOING PROJECTS TOGETHER...I'VE SEEN THE FACIAL EXPRESSIONS OF SOME OF THE CERTIFIED ARCHITECT TYPES WHEN I MENTION HOW GOOD WINTER PARK PROJECT ETC IS.......NOW TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR THOUGH....I'M NOT IMPRESSED WHEN YOU EVALUATE ALL OF THE HYPE SOME GUYS ARE GETTING FOR REWORKING A FEW BUNKERS SOMWHERE AND SOME MAGAZINE LOOKING FOR MATERIAL AND ARTICLES HYPES IT MORE THAN IT SHOULD BE....THAT'S LIKE PUTTING A DECK ON THE HOUSE AND SAYING YOU BUILD HOUSES...I LIKE THE DIRT GUYS...


We all get our start somewhere, and that was mine.  I am sure more seasoned architects wondered how I got the job and felt they could do better.  I sure feel that way, especially after the work slowdown, when established architects were nearly begging for work, and somehow an owner who really doesn't know much, manages to hire a young kid with more dreams than actual training under an established firm.  And, sometimes, for more money that I might have been willing to charge.  THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MY START AND YOUR JEFF IS THAT YOU WERE ALREADY IN ASGCA...IF YOU HAD PISSED OFF SOME ASGCA GUYS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WHEN YOU GOT THAT JOB THEN YOU WOULD HAVE HAD HELL TO PAY...

I will say that your comments back to Mark Fine in a post above where you state: 
 "And, in the recent downturn, the application process has become more renovation friendly to suit the times. "  says so much about what I bitch about.  And it proves most of my points.  I say one is either qualified or not.  You say the qualifications change based on whether there are enough applicants out there to keep the membership up.  I will never be convinced a guy doing redos and no routings or clearing etc is as qualifed as a guy who has built full courses.  It doesn't happen.  Do you think the guy who needed 5 courses within a specific number of years to be qualified  is good with backing off such qualifications so that you can bring in more dues paying members.  Do you think the GCSAA should reduce the qualificatons for CGCS if less could qualify?  The same thing happened in Boy Scouts with Eagle Scout qualifications...totally different award today than when I was coming up.   

We all have our sad tales of projects we "should have had."  Yes, it seems unfair when you lost a project, and it sometimes seems as if the universe conspires against us, but as Dad said, the universe owes you nada.   I JUST GET PISSED AT MYSELF MORE THAN ANYTHING WHEN THAT HAPPENS..

Meanwhile, I live to fight another day, professionally speaking.   IT'S ALL GOING TO BE OK..IT JUST GOLF COURSES..JUST BE GLAD WE WEREN'T PART OF THE FLORIDA SHOOTING LOSSES..PRAYERS TO THOSE FAMILIES 
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I'M IN DALLAS EVERY COUPLE OF WEEKS RIGHT NO AND WILL FIND YOU SOON DUDE...
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I do find myself wondering just how many projects have picked "the wrong architect?"  But, how could you measure?

But, I digress.

[Tom_Doak]

Purple, man?  You stole my signature color.  I am coming for you!!

[Mike_Young]

Purple, man?  You stole my signature color.  I am coming for you!!

I promise I will change colors... actually Alice Walker had the color first....

[Jeff_Brauer]

Will try to keep this short, as I doubt anyone is convinced of anything we argue about:

Derek,


That is typically the case, but in the go go 90's, there were many uneducated folks and cities jumping in the golf biz.


In some cases, I saw the culprits as those golf management/build/ operators who sold cities on courses funded basically with junk bonds, when cities couldn't pass revenue or G.O. bonds.  They were issued based on studies showing they would make increasing profits forever, leading to some of the fall out today.


But, as MY will tell you, there are apparently culprits to go around the entire industry...... I DON'T KNOW ANY MORE OR LESS CULPRITS THAN THE NEXT GUY.  I THINK MOST GUYS ARE BASICALLY GOOD IN THE DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION PART OF THE INDUSTRY...MANAGEMENT COMPANIES STILL CONCERN ME..LOTS OF SMOKE AND MIRRORS THERE...Yes of course, another group that doesn't meet up to your standards.  I understand the concern, and somewhat agree at times, as most put just as much money into a course as it can while still preserving their profit percentage.  Managing for cost often hurts architecture.
That said, this thread started as a discussion about what is appropriate credit for various entities involved, lead architect, name architect, main project architect, supplementary project draftsman, etc.  If it were really a big issue, someone would have applied some brain power to create some system.  But it isn't, and like our court cases, nearly every situation is a little bit different.  WE SEE THIS DIFFERENTLY...ITS SIMPLE FOR ME...THE COMPANY THAT GOT THE JOB GETS THE CREDIT....THE TALENTS AND SKILLS OF THE TEAM CAN BE APPRECIATED BUT THAT DOESN'T CHANGE ANYTHING IN MY MIND.  I agree, but then, its the principle's call to make.  I don't think you can apply your/our viewpoint to others.  Typically the uber successful architects tend to believe there will always be enough work for everyone (based on themselves having work most of the time) and are all too glad to share credit in an attempt to help their associates along when they leave.  Those of us who are less successful tend to see the pie divvied up in too many small pieces rather than believing someone can just bring more pie.  You can belly ache all day long, but this isn't going to change. 

And, I don't have a huge problem with former associates taking credit on their new website as long as its VERY clear they were working for me at the time.  (no small asterisk that is explained five web pages later) I do think there should be a self imposed five year limit - If you haven't gotten work to fill out your own resume by that time, it might be time to give up.  But, all of that strikes me as common sense and courteous.  I will grant, not everyone has those qualities to the degree we like.


I do agree with Mike that it can be hard to sort out when formerly aligned parties go separate ways.  When people are selling, they tout their experience.  I have been in pre-construction bid meetings where a farmer claimed credit for a pretty famous course.  Wadsworth was at the meeting and nearly exploded, because he was merely hired hourly to run the tractor to seed some fairways. I HAVE FOUND THE BEST WAY TO FIND IF SOME DUDE IS BSing ON HIS DESIGN ABILITIES IS TO ASK THE SHAPERS...  WHAT PISSES ME OFF MORE THAN ANY OF THIS IS SOME YOUNG ASSOCIATE WITH ASGCA CREDENTIALS TRIES TO CALL YOU "CHEAP" BECAUSE YOU KNOW HOW TO GET THE SAME PRODUCT WITH THE SAME SPECS FOR MUCH LESS MONEY BUT YET THE "ASGCA CERTIFIED DUDE" WANTS TO MAKE SURE HE COVERED THE PRICING FOR SOME GCBAA CONTRACTOR....THAT'S A BIG PROBLEM...
Well, having just had one of your shapers leave my job at his bosses request, I doubt I would ask a shaper.  He took many liberties with my plans, which I didn't appreciate.  So, what would he say about my design abilities? Not sure there is any one answer on how to ascertain abilities, other than to ask owners from past projects.  If a young associate truly did a lot of work, they will know it, although, they can't know for sure how much the principle formed the design back in the office even if the young one did all the field work.  As I have said, there is just no way to value (or understand) what the years of experience the principle has from the outside.  I agree, it can be misconstrued when the owner sees the associate much more than the principle.

But frankly, I just see it as the way it is, not a big problem. There are many legitimate ways to get a golf course built, and you can talk all day about the advantages or your design build, some people just can't use it, and others want the perceived comfort of a competitive bid.  While Pete and a few others continues to get work, even JN had to stop offering construction, and start taking bids because owners just want to see what competitive pricing is.

Not a knock on design build, which also has its place, just a knock on you for so strongly believing your perception of reality is the only one.  You should be walking the streets trying to convert people to your religion......


It even happened to me once, and I strive to avoid problems.  Jim Colbert told a potential client something like "I was the guy who really designed Kemper Lakes" and it made the papers and is still probably found on the internet today.  I called my mentors to apologize for the indiscretion (since Colbert had jumped their ship when I left on my own, it still didn't appease them, really)  I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL...IT HAPPENS...ONCE HAD A PAST ASGCA PREZ TELL A GROUP WANTING TO RESTORE A LOCAL PROJEC TTHAT HE WAS THE ONLY PERSON IN THE STATE "CERTIFIED BY THE ASGCA" TO DO SUCH A PROJECT AND THAT THE REST OF US WERE JACKLEGS....ALL OF THE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE IN THE ROOM BELIEVED IT....UNTIL THEY INFOMED SOME OTHER GUYS LIKE ME...

This has obviously affected you, and I have recently agreed to sponsor an applicant who has had similar experience to you, so I understand the anger.  I highly doubt this past president might have called you a jackleg (but it could have been worse!) and again, you have to believe anyone who sells by over exaggerating or negative selling will eventually lose out.  Human nature is human nature, and a few will go negative, and most owners will reject it.  Even if you have lost a few jobs, in general, you have had a nice career, so you have won some, too.  I obviously believe you don't "mostly blame yourself" or there wouldn't be a constant repetition of a few incidents where you have been hurt.
And, I have had former associates cross the line (IMHO) on taking credit, blurring lines, etc. after they have gone out on their own.  You can only hope there is some restitution somewhere along the way, if you believe in the basic goodness of most people.  MOST PEOPLE DON'T SEE THE EMPLOYER IN A VERY GOOD LIGHT ONCE THEY LEAVE...EVEN ON GOOD TERMS...IT JUST HAPPENS...Well, I have seen this go both ways.  Most of my former employees seem to remember me well, but a few have said some terrible things about me.  It always gets out (just like negative selling) and is usually taken for what it is, but yes, you can lose jobs to former employees.


And, you know, sometimes that kind of statement is true.  I got my first job because they guy in charge of the club committee had recently started his own business after being second in command, and was pre-disposed to think a young guy, just starting out, would charge a lower fee, had the experience and the energy to do them a good job.  Mike seems to think that guy, without knowing any facts, must have been hornswoggled somehow.  But, he knew what he was doing, knew the score, and made a decision that was right for him.  DON'T PUT WORDS I DON'T KNOW IN MY MOUTH ....I SAY ALL CAN GO FOR IT BUT IF THEY THROW OUT SOME FAKE CERTIFICATION ON THE CLIENT THEN I'M AL OVER IT....I LIKE THE PRESENT CONCEPT OF GROUPS OF TRAINED YOUNG GUYS THAT HAVE WORKED IN THE DIRT DOING PROJECTS TOGETHER...I'VE SEEN THE FACIAL EXPRESSIONS OF SOME OF THE CERTIFIED ARCHITECT TYPES WHEN I MENTION HOW GOOD WINTER PARK PROJECT ETC IS.......NOW TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR THOUGH....I'M NOT IMPRESSED WHEN YOU EVALUATE ALL OF THE HYPE SOME GUYS ARE GETTING FOR REWORKING A FEW BUNKERS SOMWHERE AND SOME MAGAZINE LOOKING FOR MATERIAL AND ARTICLES HYPES IT MORE THAN IT SHOULD BE....THAT'S LIKE PUTTING A DECK ON THE HOUSE AND SAYING YOU BUILD HOUSES...I LIKE THE DIRT GUYS...

Well, since there are no certifications, how could they throw them out?  Again, you seem to conflate ASGCA with plans only vs. design build, which is not universally the case.  I also don't get your anger (or who you are angry about) on "hype".  You do it, I do it, we all do it, touting whatever our latest and greatest is, mostly to benefit our owners and drive greens fees and memberships.

You like the dirt guys, so great.  But again, conflating your obviously passionate feelings about it with broader shots across the industry's bow doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Cheers.

We all get our start somewhere, and that was mine.  I am sure more seasoned architects wondered how I got the job and felt they could do better.  I sure feel that way, especially after the work slowdown, when established architects were nearly begging for work, and somehow an owner who really doesn't know much, manages to hire a young kid with more dreams than actual training under an established firm.  And, sometimes, for more money that I might have been willing to charge.  THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MY START AND YOUR JEFF IS THAT YOU WERE ALREADY IN ASGCA...IF YOU HAD PISSED OFF SOME ASGCA GUYS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD WHEN YOU GOT THAT JOB THEN YOU WOULD HAVE HAD HELL TO PAY...

I will say that your comments back to Mark Fine in a post above where you state: 
 "And, in the recent downturn, the application process has become more renovation friendly to suit the times. "  says so much about what I bitch about.  And it proves most of my points.  I say one is either qualified or not.  You say the qualifications change based on whether there are enough applicants out there to keep the membership up.  I will never be convinced a guy doing redos and no routings or clearing etc is as qualifed as a guy who has built full courses.  It doesn't happen.  Do you think the guy who needed 5 courses within a specific number of years to be qualified  is good with backing off such qualifications so that you can bring in more dues paying members.  Do you think the GCSAA should reduce the qualificatons for CGCS if less could qualify?  The same thing happened in Boy Scouts with Eagle Scout qualifications...totally different award today than when I was coming up.   

We all have our sad tales of projects we "should have had."  Yes, it seems unfair when you lost a project, and it sometimes seems as if the universe conspires against us, but as Dad said, the universe owes you nada.   I JUST GET PISSED AT MYSELF MORE THAN ANYTHING WHEN THAT HAPPENS..

Meanwhile, I live to fight another day, professionally speaking.   IT'S ALL GOING TO BE OK..IT JUST GOLF COURSES..JUST BE GLAD WE WEREN'T PART OF THE FLORIDA SHOOTING LOSSES..PRAYERS TO THOSE FAMILIES 

I'M IN DALLAS EVERY COUPLE OF WEEKS RIGHT NO AND WILL FIND YOU SOON DUDE...

I do find myself wondering just how many projects have picked "the wrong architect?"  But, how could you measure?
But, I digress.

And by the way, my real flash point of anger is you have been to Dallas and haven't called me! Let's go get some BBQ next time you are here.  Cheers.

[BHoover]

Mike and Jeff, this has been a fascinating debate (and one we have seen many times before). I think I speak for several others when I say...

[Jeff Schley]

Mike and Jeff, this has been a fascinating debate (and one we have seen many times before). I think I speak for several others when I say...

No no..... 1 more round!  Please 1 more round!      I know you don't mean me....... so i'm just being entertained.

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,

I got to be out all day today so I can't get into a bunch of posting.  Will just say that I really don't think about it that much except when we get going.  I have work and may not put it in all the magazines but I'm fine with any associates who can get it.  And I'm fine with all types of selling and hype by competitors.  I would be fine with ASGCA if they were simply a group whereby if one meets the qualifications he is a member.  As long as they are a subjective group who decides membership via a vote of the directors and a group who ask the same vendors I use for financial support then I will wish for them to implode.  They are a subtle form of trade restriction.  And then when they choose to change qualifications so that they can grab more new members....well....

I'll call you on next Dallas trip...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,


Traditionally, renovation has been part of it, and it was actually a rare time (boom) when we upped the ante to five new courses.  Historically, Ross suggested the five course minimum, and we are reluctant to tweak from that, but have tweaked the definition based on the times and a generally changing industry.  But, sort of like the Constitution, I always get a bit nervous when people talk about changing it based on a current event (like yesterday's shootings) even if I understand the angle and passion they have for their POV.


And, I disagree about subjectivity in the ASGCA process.  Yes, there is a human factor, but between owners, superintendents, former bosses (if applicable) and ASGCA course reviewers, etc. we seek over 40 opinions on each applicant, which is hopefully a broad enough sample size to increase objectivity, and reduce subjectivity and eliminate the possibility of one member with a grudge can't usually stop a membership.


Look forward to your call!

[Mike_Young]

Jeff,

As you know I respect your right to your opinion but as long as ASGCA ask for a seat at the table when ever the Alphabet groups of golf get together they have to be where any one that qualifies can join.  It's that simple.  As of right now it is still where one or two can keep a guy out even if you don't think so and we don't really want to get that going again.  Yuo still have many members who have never done an 18 hole project under their own name even though they have their own shingle and I understand that with the economy like it is.  However, you cannot show them to be more qualified than many of those outside of the organization who have. 

Catch you later.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,


I respect your opinion, too.

I mostly object to the assumptive tone of your posts, sort of assuming that ASGCA, is somehow legally or morally wrong in what they do.  Or that your idea that, say Bruce Charlton is not qualified to be a member even though he has clearly been in charge of design of literally hundreds of courses worldwide under the RTJII banner.  As I said, brighter minds than you or I have discussed these issues, and chosen to disagree on what makes a golf course architect.

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For one thing, education is an important component, and restricting membership to those who already know the most seems counter productive to fostering growth and advancement of the profession.

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T

here is no set definition of trade association, professional societies, institutes and whatever that obligates us to do any of the specific things you allude to.  Most groups of both kinds do have standards of ethics and education required before becoming a member (or if allowed in unscreened, a way to de-group those who don't follow the standards) 


I have talked with a few similar groups, and they have denied applicants membership based on a standard review process that indicates the applicant doesn't meet their standards, so ASGCA isn't all the far out of whack in our screening process.


I agree our process, or any process isn't necessarily perfect.

[Mike_Young]

Just be clear...I haven't used names...I don't know Bruce and have never said anything about him....

The way I read what you insinuate is that if you met requirements and did not get in you have an ethical problem....they don't want to throw that rock...

I'm done...

[Ian Andrew]

... deleted

[Ian Andrew]

... deleted

[BHoover]

I'm done...

[Mike_Young]

It must be February ... you start this thread every year Mike.
So my goal is to make you happy today.


Since I worked for someone else - on the only new courses I ever built from a raw site -  and they had final call on those representative projects. ... I am not a real architect.

While I do get my own work, since its restoration and renovation and that doesn't count as "real" work ... I am not real architect.

There ... are you happy?
Is that what you need to hear?

Ian,
Thanks for caring.  But I'm happy and good.  I hope you are. 
The thread was begun by someone else but I will stand by my simple comment in thread #1.
It seems otherwise that words continue to be put in my mouth.  I never said anyone wasn't a real architect.  I don't really care..not to sound harsh...
I assume this argument will always go on with myself and Jeff as long as ASGCA doesn't let in all qualified people just like the PGA or the GCSAA etc...or they go away completely....I know plenty of individuals in the organization and my argument is not with most of the individuals.  The guys who cause the situations know it and I have never mentioned names....
All the best.