Should Seminole be restored?

[Mark Saltzman]

Which looks better?


A:





or B:







A:





or B:

[Terry Lavin]

Visual clutter removal is simple and borderline dramatic.

[BCrosby]

Are you referring to the old golf instructor?

Nope...shaper....I think PD calls them Ernest Jones greens....he's been around for 30 years...from TyTY, Ga...

Is Ernest Jones still alive? Is he the guy that did some work at Sea Island in the 50's?


Bob

[Mark_Fine]

I have to admit, it is interesting to look at some of these old threads to see what we said 15 years ago.  At least we finally seem to have agreement that Wilson did rebuild all the greens.  How much he changed them in the process might never be perfectly clear but we all know it is near impossible (especially back then) to rebuild exactly what was once there.  They didn't have laser mapping in the 40's/50's 


I haven't played Seminole for a long time but was just invited by a member to come back down this winter to see the changes made to the golf course.  In addition to reverting back to more sand dunes from grass they rebuilt several bunkers, enlarged some and made them more visible from the tees.  The plan was to use these changes as models for more change in the future. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have copies of the original Ross field drawings somewhere in my files.
 
When time permits, I'll compare them to the present greens.

[Frank Giordano]

Has anyone seen Jim Dodson's fairly recent history of Seminole, written for the club and not for general circulation?  Perhaps some of these questions of who did what, when, and why are answered there?

[cary lichtenstein]

Everyone who is fortunate to play Seminole loves the golf course.  It's ranked up there as one of the best in the world.  But I'm sure most people on this site realize the routing at Seminole might be Ross, but the greensites,...are Dick Wilson.  He rebuilt and redesigned them all.  The green on the ninth hole at The Architects Golf Club in New Jersey is copied after one of the orginal Ross greens at Seminole that Dick Wilson tore up.  It's pretty cool and not what you might expect from Donald.  <P>So should Seminole be "restored" as Ross designed it?  That seems to be the growing trend around the country!  How do you know if what is there now is better then what was there before???  Maybe it doesn't matter?

Everyone defends this as a top 20 course, leave it alone and let it stand the test of time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Has anyone seen Jim Dodson's fairly recent history of Seminole, written for the club and not for general circulation?  Perhaps some of these questions of who did what, when, and why are answered there?
 
Frank,
 
I have the book and read it a few years ago.
While there's a section devoted to each hole, I think you might consider it architecturally "lite".
 
I'll reread those portions that relate to the architecture this weekend.

[Mike_Young]

Are you referring to the old golf instructor?

Nope...shaper....I think PD calls them Ernest Jones greens....he's been around for 30 years...from TyTY, Ga...

Is Ernest Jones still alive? Is he the guy that did some work at Sea Island in the 50's?


Bob

Bob,
I think he is still around Tifton and his son had been working with him in recent years.  He shaped Southern Hills in Hawkinsville for me.  He is known around for the cutting blade he makes for finishing using an I-beam and a dozer blade cutting edge...lots of guys buy them for finishing..

[Mark_Fine]

Cary,
Yes Seminole is well respected by many including me.  Could it be better - maybe?  Should it be touched - it already has been.  Should it be touched again - that is where research comes into play to see what was once there and how the course has evolved.


All courses are a constant state of change so you can’t just “leave them alone”.  Trees grow, greens shrink, bunkers lose their shapes and edges, grassing lines get altered, and the game itself evolves.  The playing fields need to adapt as well. 


Again, the real point of this thread (FROM 15 YEARS AGO) was to point out that the greens at Seminole were rebuilt by Wilson.  How much “Ross” he left in them is hard to say?  And maybe Wilson's rebuild resulted in greens that were much better than what Ross had done?  Don't know, but just like Pinehurst #2, you wouldn’t send someone to either #2 or Seminole to show them a great set of "Ross" greens.  No disrespect at all to either course, but the greens at both these courses have been changed!  I might choose Oyster Harbors if I wanted to show someone great Ross greens as I am pretty sure (having done a lot of research on that course) that those are "Ross" greens.


Best,
Mark

[Ian Andrew]

NO

... and to what, since nobody knows what was changed or not change anyway

Besides, the risk of irreparable damage to something well respected and admired far outweighs the potential for very limited gain

[Mark_Fine]

Ian,
I hear you and can't argue too much.  That said, why were all the greens at St. George's in Ontario (a recognized Top 100 in the world Thompson design) rebuilt to U.S. Green specs? 
Mark

[Ian Andrew]

Ian,
I hear you and can't argue too much.  That said, why were all the greens at St. George's in Ontario (a recognized Top 100 in the world Thompson design) rebuilt to U.S. Green specs? 
Mark

Because they were dead after the worst winter in Southern Ontario history
They used the opportunity to go from Poa to Bent, which the Super wanted to do anyway
It wasn't the first time turf has been lost in the last 20 years
Superintendent wanted USGA greens

[Patrick_Mucci]

 

Has anyone seen Jim Dodson's fairly recent history of Seminole, written for the club and not for general circulation?  Perhaps some of these questions of who did what, when, and why are answered there?
 
Frank,
 
As indicated, "The Story of Seminole" is architecturally "lite"
 
Early excerpts indicate that the greens are unchanged over 75 years.
 
In 1948 a devastating hurricane hammered Seminole.
And, Donald Ross died
 
As to Wilson's involvement, the book specifically references his mission in 1948, namely, "to revise many fairway and greenside bunkers"
 
It also indicates that he "reduced some of the more severe slopes on the putting surfaces.  Records indicate that the greens had been reduced substantially in size to save maintenance costs during WWII"
 
"These same documents show that the original Ross greens totaled 135,000 square feet when they were built in 1929.  Yet, when the greens were rebuilt after 1990, they totaled just 88,751 square feet."
 
The current greens do no reflect a significant departure, in terms of configuration, from Ross's field drawings and photos circa early 1930's.
 
Hence, I would doubt that other than # 3 and # 18, that any substantive work, other than reducing severe interior slopes, was undertaken by Wilson.
 
That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
 
 

[Jason Topp]

Which looks better?


A:





or B:







A:





or B:

For this midwesterner, I find I like the pictures with the palm trees better.  Those trees symbolize warmth in a manner that disappears when they are gone.  They do not do much to block great views.  I would keep them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason,

A good friend of mine, upon joining Seminole decades ago, was stopped by an older member.

The older member introduced himself and said, "I understand you're a new member"
My friend replied, "Yes sir, I am"
The older member then inquired, "Why did you join ?"
My friend went on to list a half a dozen reasons.
The older member than said words to the effect that, if you joined Seminole because you liked the club so much, the way it is, don't try to change it now that you're a member.

Pretty good advice.

[Mark_Fine]

I am heading down to play/see Seminole in February on the invitation of a member to see the work done by C&C.  I miss the discussions on some of these old threads (it was 17+ years ago this one was started).  It was interesting, at times combative, but very healthy and I think threads like this helped influence a lot of work on classic courses that has been done (or not done) since. 


I happen to be someone who loves classic courses.  That said, I am not one who thinks that they all should be "restored".  I do, however, think ALL of them at least deserve to be carefully studied before doing ANYTHING and especially before bringing in the bulldozers and ripping them up.  I am also not one who believes in restoring crap just for the sake of restoration.  Many courses "evolve" for the better.  At the same time, many don't.  With careful and thoughtful research, one can often show that what was once there might have been much better than what has evolved and is there now.  I have several of the original Ross drawings for Seminole as well as many early photos and am anxious to get back down to see the golf course and study what has changed. 

[Jeff Schley]

I am heading down to play/see Seminole in February on the invitation of a member to see the work done by C&C.  I miss the discussions on some of these old threads (it was 17+ years ago this one was started).  It was interesting, at times combative, but very healthy and I think threads like this helped influence a lot of work on classic courses that has been done (or not done) since. 


I happen to be someone who loves classic courses.  That said, I am not one who thinks that they all should be "restored".  I do, however, think ALL of them at least deserve to be carefully studied before doing ANYTHING and especially before bringing in the bulldozers and ripping them up.  I am also not one who believes in restoring crap just for the sake of restoration.  Many courses "evolve" for the better.  At the same time, many don't.  With careful and thoughtful research, one can often show that what was once there might have been much better than what has evolved and is there now.  I have several of the original Ross drawings for Seminole as well as many early photos and am anxious to get back down to see the golf course and study what has changed.

Mark,
I'm impressed with your detailed research on the place and not surprised by your passion for keeping a classic a classic. A good maintenance program is much different than any restoration and curious to hear your impressions as to the course changes/condition.
Jeff

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
Thanks but I have done no where near the amount of research I would be doing if Seminole was I course I was working on myself.  Others should be taking credit for that, not me.  I am fascinated by it though.  So many of these old courses change (a lot) and people don't realize it.  Pinehurst #2 is a great example.  Ross never did those crowned greens.  If you research it, you will learn how they came to be that way. 


Your point is well taken about good maintenance practices. It is sooo important that the club/superintendent buys into proper maintenace for any kind of restoration or renovation program otherwise you can be wasting your time.  If you want greens taken back out to the edges of the fill pads, want fairway/rough/approach grassing lines a certain way, bunkers edged in a particular fashion, firm and fast conditions, ... the super needs to "get it".  That said, you shouldn't let every superintendent dictate what is recommended to be done otherwise many would take down every tree, put in wall to wall cart paths, make sure every bunker can be machine raked and every green be triplex mowed,...   This is an extreme of course as most superintendents are excellent and they MUST be part of the whole process as they will be the ones maintaining the place after the work is done.  We have had situations where we walked away from possible projects because we knew it wasn't going to work out and times where the superintendent was replaced before the project started because they thought a lot like what I mentioned above.  Every plan we do comes with maintenance recommendations that have been reviewed and bought into by the super and the club.  After that it is up to them.


I am anxious to see Seminole again and will be taking a much closer look than I did the last time down there. 

[George Pazin]

Jason,

A good friend of mine, upon joining Seminole decades ago, was stopped by an older member.

The older member introduced himself and said, "I understand you're a new member"
My friend replied, "Yes sir, I am"
The older member then inquired, "Why did you join ?"
My friend went on to list a half a dozen reasons.
The older member than said words to the effect that, if you joined Seminole because you liked the club so much, the way it is, don't try to change it now that you're a member.

Pretty good advice.

This story makes me smile.


I don't care for the trees in the pics, but I don't hate 'em, either. At least they appear to be relatively sparse.

[Joel_Stewart]

I am heading down to play/see Seminole in February on the invitation of a member to see the work done by C&C. 

What did C&C do?


I know they removed some trees and rebuilt some bunkers but don't know if they attempted to restore any of the Ross features.

[Mark_Fine]

Joel,

I believe they have only worked on nine holes so far but I will definitely find out once I get there.  I just had to change my travel plans so likely not for several weeks.  I am anxious to see what they did. 
Mark

[Dean Stokes]

I played last May in The Loggerhead Charity event. It appeared to me that the main changes were in the new back tees, a few bunker replacements and the enhancement of waste areas. The half way house was moved to where the old caddie yard was and the 1st and 10th tee moved back toward the putting area - it's now also a dual teeing area. I just remember thinking how far back some of the tees are when you come off some of the greens, and wondering if it changed the pleasant walk ability of the course for anyone playing back there!