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Brent Carlson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2011, 11:55:29 PM »
If my memory serves me Erin Hills' 18th green is a way from the clubhouse.  They had a shuttle running to bring golfers in. 

Regardless of the distance it is an enjoyable hole with the spectacular backdrop of the clubhouse and Holy Hill.

Scott Sander

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2011, 04:18:33 AM »
Dye/Liddy's The Bridgewater Club in suburban Indianapolis starts and ends away from the clubhouse.  Neither is especially far, but both are completely cut off from the clubhouse visually.  In fact, I'm not sure you can see any of the course from the clubhouse. 
 
It's an extremely walkable course, and the distance from the tee or green to the clubhouse in no way hinders that.
IMHO, distance between holes can make a course cumbersome for walking because it can lead cart riders to stack up behind us hoofers, but the distance to tee #1 or green #18 doesn't play any role in pace whatsoever.  The round hasn't started (1).... and it's already over (2).

The one clear downside at Bridgewater:  18 is a tremendous finisher for matches, but the homeowner on 18 green is the only person who ever sees those finishes.  A good finishing hole at a club that has competitive golfers deserves a few tables where friends are watching and drinks and jabs are waiting.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 04:34:34 AM by Scott Sander »

Criss Titschinger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2011, 05:14:42 AM »
Staying in that HH area, the Melrose course on Daufuskie Island has a pretty far cart ride from the 18th green to the Clubhouse (farther than HT's by my calculations). Another closer on the water.

The Melrose course, according to the resort's web site, is "temporarily closed". I remember this article talking about the challenges of keeping the course in decent shape despite the bankruptcy, but haven't heard anything since. Hope they plan to reopen the course. I always thought it was one of the better public options in Hilton Head.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2011, 09:04:49 PM by Criss Titschinger »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2011, 05:18:05 AM »
Some of you seem to say that finding the best 18th hole is more important than making a course walkable.  True?

WW

I may be in the minority here, but I am for finding the best 18 holes.  I also do not have a problem with the 18th not finishing at the clubhouse if there is good reason (i.e. spectacular greensite like Harbor Town).

Chris


WW

It could be that some folks differentiate between walkable (long or short walk) and unwalkable (huge walk/too hilly).  To me, the best courses are nearly always good walks and a good walk has to include the house.  My day starts at the house, not the 1st tee. Perhaps 10 years ago I would have been more lenient, but as a confirmed bag carrier it has become more and more important that the walk not just be doable, but be comfortable and actually help create good rhythm in the design.  Long walks between holes don't facilitate this in the least and instead it just makes me grumpy and want to slap the archie.  This exactly how I felt at Kiawah after being told the first tee was a cart ride away yet the practice range  was next to the house.  To me, thats a mix-up of priorities.  Okay, I understand that this routing was due to a consequence of a mistake, but that is a VERY BAD MISTAKE TO MAKE.

Ciao 
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 04:49:15 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2011, 07:24:18 AM »
I've built courses which finish away from the clubhouse two or three times in the past, and I'm about to do it again on a new project, I think.

The routing for Black Forest evolved over a period of time.  Originally the client was thinking he would build a separate clubhouse for the second course, and we were trying to route all 18 holes down in the valley, but coming up a bit short.  I started exploring up on the hill closer to the clubhouse, and found a couple of holes that I liked -- but then found out that some of that property had been sold as 10-acre undeveloped lots years beforehand. 

After some thought, the owner bought back three lots so he could get the starting hole close enough to punt on a new clubhouse for the short term [and twenty years later, he's still not built one].  But, I decided not to make a long cart ride up the hill after 15 or 16 holes in order to play three finishing holes on the flats.  My reasoning was that the holes were better down below, that you could actually walk the course and play a tournament as long as you didn't have to make the climb back up within the round [you could just put the scoreboard down below by #18 green], and that it was better not to break up the round with a big cart ride late in the game.

The new routing I'm working on now has some similar issues, so I suggested to the client that we build an "open-jawed" routing that doesn't start and finish in the same place.  It is amazing how many more options this gives you in terms of finding 18 holes.  It isn't appropriate for most projects, but occasionally, it fits fine.  We thought about the same thing for Rock Creek, so people wouldn't have to make the trek from the clubhouse all the way to the high point of the course carrying their clubs, but eventually we realized a remote start would convince MORE people to take a cart, and we found a relatively gentle routing for the holes that get you up the hill.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2011, 07:35:42 AM »
Tom,

You're correct about the long walk/ride being better after the round than during it, IMO. The new Hamilton Island course here in Australia has a roughly 1km ride from 17 to 18 that saps any desire to play the last hole. After driving that far you just feel like giving it a miss and heading straight to the bar. It still wouldn't be ideal after the 18th, but it would be preferable.

Long transitions should be avoided at any time, but that late in the round I reckon they're especially heinous.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2011, 07:40:45 AM »
The new routing I'm working on now has some similar issues, so I suggested to the client that we build an "open-jawed" routing that doesn't start and finish in the same place. 

There is a MacKenzie and Ebert course on one of the Canary Islands (I forget which one) that starts at the top of the mountain and zig-zags down thus creating a routing with no (or next-to no) uphill climbs... I believe there is a free shuttle-bus back up to the clubhouse...

Always wanted to see this course to see if the pros outweighed the cons

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2011, 07:51:53 AM »
Ally:

There is a ski-hill course here in Michigan (Boyne Mountain) which has the same sort of routing as the Canary Islands course you describe, except that the clubhouse is at the bottom like a ski lodge, and you drive up the hill to the first tee to start, as if taking a ski lift.  Of course, nearly everyone here takes their own cart ...

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #58 on: April 26, 2011, 09:40:06 AM »
The Otsego Club's newer course, the Tribute (Grayling, MI) starts and finishes about 3/4's to a mile away from the Clubhouse.  The course was built over 1100 acreas leading to some cart rides between holes.


The layout of the course is shown below:

http://www.otsegoclub.com/userfiles/file/Tributemap2.jpg

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #59 on: April 26, 2011, 10:06:41 AM »
Walton Heath is a good nomination. Woburn Marquees is a bit of a hike from memory - though having 3 courses doesn't help the ability to route it back directly to the clubhouse..


Jason Baran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #60 on: April 26, 2011, 11:26:38 AM »
I think distance from 18 green to clubhouse at Van Cortlandt Park in the Bronx is north of 1 mile...

Chris_Blakely

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #61 on: April 26, 2011, 11:32:58 AM »
I think distance from 18 green to clubhouse at Van Cortlandt Park in the Bronx is north of 1 mile...


I think the 'Power Broker' had a lot to do with that as the Mosulu Parkway and the Major Deegan devastated that course!! ;)

Chris

Ryan Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2018, 10:54:23 PM »
I've built courses which finish away from the clubhouse two or three times in the past, and I'm about to do it again on a new project, I think.

The routing for Black Forest evolved over a period of time.  Originally the client was thinking he would build a separate clubhouse for the second course, and we were trying to route all 18 holes down in the valley, but coming up a bit short.  I started exploring up on the hill closer to the clubhouse, and found a couple of holes that I liked -- but then found out that some of that property had been sold as 10-acre undeveloped lots years beforehand. 

After some thought, the owner bought back three lots so he could get the starting hole close enough to punt on a new clubhouse for the short term [and twenty years later, he's still not built one].  But, I decided not to make a long cart ride up the hill after 15 or 16 holes in order to play three finishing holes on the flats.  My reasoning was that the holes were better down below, that you could actually walk the course and play a tournament as long as you didn't have to make the climb back up within the round [you could just put the scoreboard down below by #18 green], and that it was better not to break up the round with a big cart ride late in the game.

The new routing I'm working on now has some similar issues, so I suggested to the client that we build an "open-jawed" routing that doesn't start and finish in the same place.  It is amazing how many more options this gives you in terms of finding 18 holes.  It isn't appropriate for most projects, but occasionally, it fits fine.  We thought about the same thing for Rock Creek, so people wouldn't have to make the trek from the clubhouse all the way to the high point of the course carrying their clubs, but eventually we realized a remote start would convince MORE people to take a cart, and we found a relatively gentle routing for the holes that get you up the hill.


Could you route a memorable hole, (Par 3?), in between #2 green and #3 tee at BF? #1 backwards would make for a nice putting green and driving range.
"Bandon is like Chamonix for skiers or the North Shore of Oahu for surfers,” Rogers said. “It is where those who really care end up."

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2018, 11:16:34 PM »
Ryan:
From ridge to valley at Black Forest is steep enough for long enough that your proposed hole wouldn't work very well - you couldn't hit a drive to the bottom, every tee shot would finish on a big downslope.  And 18 green is still a long way from #2 tee.  Plus #2 would become the hardest opening hole in golf!!


Since this thread was posted we completed the course I was talking about (Dismal River) and I also played the course in the Canary Islands that Ally mentioned (Tecina, whose clubhouse is at the bottom and they bus you up to start).  I didn't love the latter, but it was the only way to route a course on that steep, narrow site.


We are contemplating doing this again on a new project in California- a true "base camp golf" course with the last green nearly 600 feet below the first tee, and a mile and a half away.  But it should be very walkable; it will just finish at a different hotel from the one you started at!

Jake Marvin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2018, 11:30:07 PM »
Whoops, missed something earlier in the thread. Post redacted.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 11:32:34 PM by Jake Marvin »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #65 on: February 25, 2018, 05:18:30 AM »
Walton Heath is a good nomination.

The club has long recognized the issue and is trying to move the house and WHO 1 to the far side of the road.  The land is there to build an extra hole..and lets face it, WHO 1 isn't a keeper...it was a stop gap creation.  The real problem, should planning be approved, is what sort of house is built. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2018, 06:12:54 AM »
Tom,


On my many, many trips to the west of Ireland over the last few years, I’ve often dreamt about routing a course between two old style country pubs (you know the ones, complete with open fires and snugs). All you’d need is a back room with shower facilities in one and a free shuttle bus running between the two every hour.


Would be like that blissful walk in the Irish hills followed by a warming pint of Guinness to welcome the finish. Perfect Sunday fodder in winter.

JJShanley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2018, 08:12:27 AM »
Tim Liddy's Rock Hollow in Peru, Ind., has about a quarter-mile trek from the 18th green to the clubhouse.  The first tee, range, and clubhouse are all a decent walk apart, but I think that they've always played the 1-18 current routing.  It's a pain when you don't leave yourself enough time to get from South Bend to Peru on a Saturday morning, but I quite enjoyed the course after I teed off.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2018, 09:13:56 AM »
Long walk back the clubhouse from the 18th at Yelverton. Road/bypass issues over the years.
Some clubs have the course on one side of a main road and the clubhouse on another, eg Sutton Coldfield, Enville.
atb

MJohnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2018, 10:48:22 AM »
Enville does have a clubhouse that is about 60 yards from 18th green of the Highgate course and 90 yards from the Lodge 18th and you have to cross a small road to get to the courses. This was not always the case.


The 18th on Highgate was a par 4 over the first half of the present par 5 18th and the clubhouse sat above that green. The clubhouse was moved to an old farmhouse  further along the road and on the opposite side of the road from the course.
Neither walk is excessive. The road is not a major one and so there is no need for a crossing as there is at Sutton Coldfield.
2019 courses - Enville, Wharton Park,

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2018, 10:53:06 AM »
Enville can do no wrong when it comes to the house because they serve the best beer in golf!




Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2018, 03:35:16 PM »
 8)  In regard to Black Forest, its only a quarter mile from clubhouse to first tee, but its a 2/3 mile trudge from #18 back to #1 tee up the sandy 2 track to the ridge road.. so its just under a mile back home.  When I walked it several times, I went the quarter mile from #18 and then jumped onto The Valley course and played its last 5 holes in... much nicer use of time and energy!
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Greg Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: When 18 Doesn't Come Home
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2018, 06:07:31 PM »
It's not so much that I'm not a fan of finishing remotely... but that I AM a fan of finishing close to the house.

By profession I'm a nurse at this point in life, but by education I'm an architect (the regular building kind).  As such I've thought an awful lot about those "transition zones" inside to outside and vice versa -- and ways to maximize/optimize/beautify those experiences.

In the instance of golf course vs. clubhouse, it's just too golden an opportunity to pass up.  That's why one might consider re-ordering the holes at Woking just to get the 14th (close to the house) as the 18th.  It's why the 1st tee at Merion is so awesome.  Closeness to the house makes the golf part of the "transition zone" and leads to greater feelings of intimacy, which I think would be considered a virtue in golf architecture, at least around this site.

I really, really, liked the idea earlier in this thread of a dream course routed between two Irish country pubs, with a shuttle in between.  This sounded like the ultimate in romance, and an idea I'd never thought of.

So I guess I'm saying that if a majorly "open-jawed" routing is absolutely necessary, then you need TWO worthy buildings in order to live up to the great golf.  Maybe that's simply the price you have to pay in order to find/take advantage of the absolute best routing.  You could even find some inventive way to make the transport between facilities a "wow" part of the experience.
O fools!  who drudge from morn til night
And dream your way of life is wise,
Come hither!  prove a happier plight,
The golfer lives in Paradise!                      

John Somerville, The Ballade of the Links at Rye (1898)

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