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Peter Pallotta

Only bad golfers are lucky
« on: February 03, 2018, 09:29:55 AM »
The inimitable Lee Trevino, who when it comes to golf and how to play the game is, I find, almost always right. Here's what he has to say about lucky/unlucky bounces (and, by implication, the 'fair' golf courses that pros love and the enlightened frown upon):

"Only bad golfers are lucky. They're the ones bouncing balls off trees, curbs, and turtles. Good golfers have bad luck. When you hit the ball straight, a funny bounce is bound to be unlucky."

And then, just to add nuance and his own brand of architectural sophistication, this too:

"My advice to architects: Before you build a course with deep bunkers, railroad ties, forced carries and water everywhere, just remember that no Donald Ross course has ever gone Chapter 11."

Is it just me, or do those two statements go hand in hand?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2018, 09:35:59 AM »
Well, Lee has always been a quotable guy, as well as one of the best ball-strikers of all time.


But there are a lot of NLE Donald Ross courses.


And good players get good bounces, too.  They are just unlikely to acknowledge them, because they think they always deserve the good bounce.


Years ago I was playing one at Stonewall with a potential client who was a 1-handicap.  On the 15th hole of the Old Course, he hit a pretty bad pop-up pulled tee shot, which just happened to land right in the bail-out area for high handicappers ... and it fed right down to the hole and almost went in for an ace.  To my astonishment, it made him mad, and he spent the rest of the round telling me how bad he thought that hole was!  I guess he would have been embarrassed to explain how he'd made an ace there.

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2018, 10:24:58 AM »
Peter -


Great find. It really is remarkable how consistently pros insist on a strict correlation between shot quality and shot outcomes. Tom's story about the 1 - handicapper at Stonewall captures the idea, though in a back-handed way. Even a good outcome is problematic if it doesn't result from a good shot.


Bob






 

jeffwarne

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Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2018, 10:32:18 AM »
When your trajectory is head high, you get more bounces...


...some will be deemed "bad", but a bounce is just a bounce
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2018, 11:24:22 AM »
Back in the 70's Lee Buck also said "I'd rather be lucky than good."  I have an ashtray that has Trevino quotes on it.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Steve Lang

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Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 11:39:27 AM »
 8)  ... and certainly the famous Hogan quote,"The more I practice, the luckier I get" is at play..


So  I guess perhaps one really has to distinguish between dumb luck and professional luck??
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Peter Pallotta

Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 11:45:33 AM »
Everyone said (and I've read many experts say) that he hit a fade; but watch old footage for 5 minutes and it's clear he hit a 'block', with the ball in the middle of his stance, taking the club way outside and then tucking in his elbow and dropping down 6 inches and staying down through the shot. Almost unanimously recognized as one of the best ball strikers of all time -- and yet I've not come across a single book/teacher who thinks "Hey, maybe Lee was onto something". 

Saw him talking recently about how, when he did want to play a fade, he actually *closed* his stance, not opened it. I thought: what's he talking about?  Then came across a Golf Channel Live from about 2000, with Butch and Tiger talking about his swing. Tiger said that, for all his practicing and study, he was still a feel player -- and that, when he wants to hit a fade on a given day, he finds himself more comfortable doing it with a *closed* stance.  Which is to say, I'm listening to Mr. Trevino.

And his short-off-the-tee, low-ball hitting style is precisely what made this remark interesting. He dug his swing out of the dirt, and worked hard on his game; but there are countless average golfers who (because of lack of talent and/or lack of practice) also don't hit the ball very far, and who don't generate enough club-head speed to get a lot of height on any of their shots. And, like Lee, they too like/appreciate the 'Donald Ross' style of gca. Many of you guys know a lot about Donald Ross -- in *general* are his courses not 'all of in front of you'? In general, are they not what might be described as 'fair'?

Really am just asking -- based on the sure belief that Mr Trevino knows more about golf and golf course architecture than I'll ever know.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 11:48:46 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 01:08:03 PM »



Having put in a few design proposals with LT, I got some insight into his thinking, which is largely as described.


Two points I recall right off the top of my head were him telling me he thinks the green slope ought to face the sand bunker to help stop a bunker shot.  He felt it was bad design when the green rolled away from the bunker and he couldn't get one close to a tight pin.  While I explained that we do need to raise the bunker lip to keep water from draining in the bunker, I do find I have moved my swales closer to the low side of the green to minimize that.


He also took some time to point out a feature at Dallas National, where Fazio put a subtle change of grade in the middle of a green.  That is he offered a chipping area with a downhill slope.  The right of the green probably sloped away 2%, and the left of the green sloped away from the chipping area about 2%, but there was a 5-10 foot strip in the middle sloping away about 3-4%, not enough difference to see without looking closely, but just enough to accelerate the ball, potentially off the green.  He felt that was just terrible design, with the rationale that he couldn't judge or play it, so how could the architect expect the average player to play it?

Notah Begay III was there, and chimed in on agreement about not liking the feature.  He even hit a few shots from there to demonstrate how hard it was to get to a pin just past/below that slope change.




It was not long after playing the opening of Trip Davis/Justin Leonard design at Old American.  They also said that a change in contour mid way through a chip or putt was the only way to make a pro miss, sometimes badly.  They, however, embraced the idea.....on nearly every green :(   Coincidentally, I recall having just read Tom Doak espouse that theory as good design on this site, and had to chuckle at the differences of opinion.


 Jim Colbert was a big fan of the seemingly obvious bail out chipping areas that resulted in a downhill chip that might get away from you, but didn't think a mid green grade change was a good idea.  He felt a downhill chip was enough punishment for a bail out (intentional or semi missed shot) and good design.  I think he also felt that there ought to be a chance to get nearly every shot close to the hole, provided you had the skill and touch to do it.  Conversely, it would be bad design to introduce a contour that made it impossible to get close, even with the best shot. 

I think most pros and good players would fall into that category.


I mostly stick to Colbert's theory.  IF I ever put that subtle grade change in the middle of a green, I sure wouldn't do it without some counter slope on the other side to hold shots in, and I would never do it with water or a cliff on the other side that would cause a lost ball, etc.  If you miss the green, and then miss the chip, you are looking at bogey-double bogey. Under the circumstances I just gave above, you could miss the green by ten feet, chip into the water, replace and chip again, and you would be looking at a double/triple.......both on the course, and probably in the bar after the round.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 01:14:49 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Thomas Dai

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Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2018, 01:09:33 PM »
Didn’t Gary Player have something to say about luck and practice?
Atb

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2018, 01:46:36 PM »
Didn’t Gary Player have something to say about luck and practice?
Atb


Yes, and he's another one who will be quick to tell you it's bad architecture to build anything unpredictable into a course.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2018, 05:10:11 PM »
From my experience,


It seems like good players attribute a good bounce to thier own doing as if they "deserved it", but then throw a fit when a HH'er gets one and go on and on and on about how lucky you got on that!  ;)

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2018, 07:41:09 PM »
Can’t disagree with the premise, as I’ve had four holes-in-one. In my defense, each shot felt perfect upon impact.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Peter Pallotta

Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2018, 07:51:11 PM »
Can’t disagree with the premise, as I’ve had four holes-in-one. In my defense, each shot felt perfect upon impact.
That's like the 'best player never to have won a major' debate. How good could whoever gets named actually have been? Similarly, with four holes-in-one, Judge, how *bad* do you expect us to think you actually are?

No, Lee was talking about a golfer like me -- except that I don't remember *ever* getting a lucky bounce. But maybe I've blotted them all out and remember just the bad ones, like Hale Irwin used to.... 

Peter
PS - my vote goes not to Colin Montgomerie (certainly a worthy candidate) but to that human ATM himself, Scott Hoch. He wasn't a media darling, but he played terrific golf for a long time and won a lot of tournaments...on the PGA tour to boot.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 07:55:05 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Colin Macqueen

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Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2018, 10:53:41 PM »
Yes Peter,



"But maybe I've blotted them all out and remember just the bad ones....".
I am always slightly amused with the post round dissection in the bar when ALL golfers (including me!) seem to remember this bit of bad luck and that ruinous, cruel, unwarranted bounce but NEVER remember the good luck when their ball ricocheted of the tree bough and into middle fairway rather than flying into the Brisbane river!
".... such stuff as dreams are made on...."!!
Cheers Colin
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 12:17:35 AM by Colin Macqueen »
"Golf, thou art a gentle sprite, I owe thee much"
The Hielander

john_stiles

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Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2018, 11:12:28 PM »

Tom Doak's comment regarding Trevino's observation rings very true based on my experience.

" good players get good bounces, too.  They are just unlikely to acknowledge them, because they think they always deserve the good bounce."

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2018, 03:55:52 AM »
Pros get less dumb luck because they hit less terrible or iffy shots.  The luck pros get is quite consistent...hitting people to drop in trampled rough comes to mind immediately. 

I do recall one L Trevino beating Tony Jacklin at Muirfield partly due to some dumb luck  8)

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Only bad golfers are lucky
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2018, 03:21:36 PM »
I think Trevino also said to an Amateur at a pro-am when asked how to get more distance on his drives, "Hit your drive and run backwards."

"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

David_Tepper

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Re: Only bad golfers are lucky New
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2018, 03:50:46 PM »
I remember Hale Irwin pull-hooking his drive on #18 on to the rocks at Pebble Beach during the 1984 Crosby and having it bounce back into the fairway. Irwin was able to save par and beat Jim Nelford in a playoff to win the tournament.

In the 1976 Memorial, Roger Maltbie's errant shot was saved from going into big trouble by hitting a stake holding up a gallery rope. It allowed him to beat Irwin in a playoff to win the tournament. Maltbie said Irwin was so mad he did not speak to Maltbie for a year. ;)     

Golf is a funny game some times.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 04:29:43 PM by David_Tepper »

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