Thought Experiment: How Many Clubs Do You Need?

[Garland Bayley]

Always good to hear from you, Garland; thanks for the sarcasm.  That always elevates a discussion.

...

I could tell how much you enjoyed sarcasm from how much you used on George.
 

[A.G._Crockett]

Always good to hear from you, Garland; thanks for the sarcasm.  That always elevates a discussion.

...

I could tell how much you enjoyed sarcasm from how much you used on George.
 

Garland,
I doubt that George needs defending, but perhaps you could go back and read post 129.  My post was a response to those comments; in any case, I don't know how that involves or concerns you.  But I'm sure you will tell me in unflattering terms asap.

[Sean_A]

Sean -

I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.

So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.

There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...

George

You have a 20 yard gap between irons?  If the 7 iron is counted on for 170, why the hell would you use it for a 150 hole?  I never advovcated that in the least. 

Garland

Maybe you are the only high capper in the world who knows exactly how far your irons will go.  Why are you a high capper with such precision?

Ciao

[Bill Vogeney]

Great question Tom. There are certain courses I need the full 14. That being said, I could certainly play Ballyneal with a driver, 4 hybrid, 6 iron, 8 iron, PW, 58 and putter. 7 clubs. Your course gives players options. Torrey South?No options. Bay Hill? No options.Just about every Nicklaus course I have ever seen? No options.


In fact, when I go back in May, I might have to try that and carry my own bag.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Turning up for a game yesterday I realised that I'd forgotten to charge my battery for my trolley, so instead - with this thread in mind - I loaded up a pencil bag with 7 clubs;


Driver
19 deg Hybrid
5 Iron
7 Iron
9 Iron
SW
Putter


I found that I actually preferred having fewer clubs to choose from, and certainly enjoyed carrying a feather-light bag instead of guiding round an unwieldy trolley on muddy paths. I'm converted!


The only issue I found I had was from around 100 yards. Next time I shall add a club to close the gap between 9I and SW.  When the ground dries out a little in the spring this may be less of a problem.


So for me at least, the answer to Tom's question is 7 or 8.

[Sean_A]

Duncan

Yes, there are certainly times where I don't have the right club and I have to manufacture a shot...I usually fail (as if golf should be so black and white)....but I usually fail with the right club as well     

Ciao

[Sam Andrews]

For curiosity's sake, I counted up the clubs my partner and I used on Sunday in a foursomes match. I am guessing some of my partner's clubbing as I was not looking closely.

Me: driver x 7; 3 wood x 2; 7 iron x 1; 8 iron x 2 (once was the wrong club, should have been a 6); wedge x 5; putter x 13

Partner: Driver x 5; 3 wood x 3; Wedge x 7; 3/4 iron x 3; 6/7 iron x 5; putter x 5

[Peter Pallotta]

Like Sean, I often fail whether with the wrong club in my hand or the right one. I like to think it's good for my character -- since in other areas of life it happens so rarely and so helps keep my humble 

Like Duncan, I sometimes use a pencil bag with a half set, and it's so light and easy to carry that I feel 20 years younger (and stronger) -- also good for my character.

One time, when I *didn't* fail, with a pencil bag and a half set, still stands out as one of the most pleasant and satisfying of all my golf experiences: a windy day, a longish par 3, pin up front and tucked behind a right side bunker -- it was probably a 5 iron, but I only had a 4 or a 6, so I took the 4 iron, channeled Lee Trevino, imagined a fade, opened my stance (the club face still square to the target) swung smoothly but crisply along my stance-line, heard the gun-shot-like-crack of a well struck blade, watched the ball rise up majestically and hold its line and then, as if I'd drawn it (or Lee or Ben Hogan had hit it), it started to gently fade and landed softly, middle-right and pin high and rolled towards the pin to about 10 feet....to the ooohhs and aaahhs of my fellow mid-handicap companions.   

My first time breaking 80 (the card and pencil Peter) was satisfying indeed; but for pure pleasure and exhilaration (the experiential Peter), that 4 iron takes the cake.

Which is to say: golf is so great a game because it will (or at least sometimes can) give you back precisely what you ask of it.     

[Garland Bayley]

Sean -

I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.

So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.

There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...

George

You have a 20 yard gap between irons?  If the 7 iron is counted on for 170, why the hell would you use it for a 150 hole?  I never advovcated that in the least. 
You keep saying that as a hh he shouldn't be using it from 170. How far should he use it from?

Garland

Maybe you are the only high capper in the world who knows exactly how far your irons will go.  Why are you a high capper with such precision?

Aren't You forgetting George?

Ciao

[George Pazin]

Sean -

I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.

So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.

There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...

George

You have a 20 yard gap between irons?  If the 7 iron is counted on for 170, why the hell would you use it for a 150 hole?  I never advovcated that in the least. 

Garland

Maybe you are the only high capper in the world who knows exactly how far your irons will go.  Why are you a high capper with such precision?

Ciao

No, as it happens, I have about a 15 yard gap between irons. Gap gets smaller as the lofts increase (ie 10 yards between 8-9-pw, closer to 15 with 5-6-7).


When I hit my 7 iron solidly, which I do maybe 80% of the time, it flies about 170. But if you were to look at an average, the number might be way less, as 1 or 2 times out of 10 I will flat out chunk it 20-40 yards. I just don't play or practice enough to be more consistent. So, my "average" 7 iron might be 150, but that certainly isn't what I plan for.


I just did a quick spreadsheet of 10 mythical shots by yours truly. The mean came out to 137, but the mode is 170. That's the number I plan for. Averages are less meaningful for HHers, imho.

That's why I say golf is a non-discrete game of discretes... Since Brent Hutto doesn't seem to post anymore, only Garland will probably get that. And I'm ok with that.

[Kalen Braley]

George,


I'm a lousy golfer too so I get it.    

But I typically don't have those kind of length issues with my shorter irons.  Its when I get to my 3 thru 5 iron that distance may vary wildly....

[John Kavanaugh]

George,


If you hit a 7 iron 170 because you can why not choose to hit it 155? It honestly makes no sense for a poor golfer to swing hard enough to hit a 7 iron 170 yds. Why not make the leap to being a good golfer and focus more on trajectory than distance?

[Garland Bayley]

George,


I'm a lousy golfer too so I get it.    

But I typically don't have those kind of length issues with my shorter irons.  Its when I get to my 3 thru 5 iron that distance may vary wildly....

And, if you "play it forward", you don't need the 8 thru 3.
Unless of course, you chunk one 20 to 40 yards.

[Brian Finn]

8

[BHoover]

8

I hope you’re joking. That’s way too many. The correct number is 5, maybe 6.

[Garland Bayley]

George,


If you hit a 7 iron 170 because you can why not choose to hit it 155? It honestly makes no sense for a poor golfer to swing hard enough to hit a 7 iron 170 yds. Why not make the leap to being a good golfer and focus more on trajectory than distance?

Because he hits it 170 with a relatively easy swing. It goes 190 when he really goes for it.

[Sean_A]

Sean -

I realize most HHers don't hit it as long as they think. And I can't speak for them, only for myself. I happen to hit my irons pretty far, compared to many. The thing is, my miss margin is gigantic. If I planned on hitting my 7 iron on 150 yard holes (usually it's my 170 club) because when I mishit it, it goes almost anywhere - maybe 130 + 30 yards to the right, or maybe 175 and 30 yards to the left, or maybe even 30 yards chunked. I know there would be a lot of holes where I'd be dead, over the green in a brutal area (it might fly 170, but when it hits that built up area, it is rocketing another 10-20 yards down a hill), or at the very best, chipping or hopefully putting downhill.

So my own general plan is, plan for the 170 yard shot. If it doesn't work out, I'm usually not dead (as long as there's not death left of the green, if that's the case, I'm magically drawn to it). If I pull a 6 iron or 5 iron, I can almost guarantee I am dead.

There's godawful punctuation in the first paragraph, but I don't have the energy to rewrite it correctly...

George

You have a 20 yard gap between irons?  If the 7 iron is counted on for 170, why the hell would you use it for a 150 hole?  I never advovcated that in the least. 

Garland

Maybe you are the only high capper in the world who knows exactly how far your irons will go.  Why are you a high capper with such precision?

Ciao

No, as it happens, I have about a 15 yard gap between irons. Gap gets smaller as the lofts increase (ie 10 yards between 8-9-pw, closer to 15 with 5-6-7).

When I hit my 7 iron solidly, which I do maybe 80% of the time, it flies about 170. But if you were to look at an average, the number might be way less, as 1 or 2 times out of 10 I will flat out chunk it 20-40 yards. I just don't play or practice enough to be more consistent. So, my "average" 7 iron might be 150, but that certainly isn't what I plan for.

I just did a quick spreadsheet of 10 mythical shots by yours truly. The mean came out to 137, but the mode is 170. That's the number I plan for. Averages are less meaningful for HHers, imho.

That's why I say golf is a non-discrete game of discretes... Since Brent Hutto doesn't seem to post anymore, only Garland will probably get that. And I'm ok with that.

After all that, if you are hitting your 7 iron 170 yards 80% of the time I have to question you handicap.  I am astounded at the distance control you and Garland seem to have. 

After all that II, if you are hitting your 7 iron 170 yards 80% of the time and missing miles left or right, hit less club and get into less trouble because pin high miles off the green is often a terrible spot.

In the end, taking enough club to make sure you get to the middle of green on most holes may be terrible advice for you, but I contend that it is generally very good advice for most high cappers.  Hell, its good advice for me, but I am willing to take the chance of going long 2-3 times a round by playing the odds of experience in knowing that most misses for most handicap players is short of the green.  They may also miss wide left or right, but short of the green is a very high probability. 

Ciao

[Brian Finn]

8

I hope you’re joking. That’s way too many. The correct number is 5, maybe 6.

Not joking at all.  8 clubs, 8 degree increments between irons.  I believe you could play any golf course with such a configuration.  For example:

1 - Driver
2 - 3 hybrid
3 - 24 degree iron (4/5)
4 - 32 degree iron (6/7)
5 - 40 degree iron (8/9)
6 - 48 degree PW
7 - 56 degree SW
8 - Putter

Of course you could adjust each of these to fit your game and skill set (I think I might go with 22 degree through 54 degree irons), and of course you could reduce the number by increasing the gaps between clubs, or accepting limitations on one end or the other, but I think 8 is the number where most golfers would be able to play without a significant difference in scoring. 

[George Pazin]

After all that, if you are hitting your 7 iron 170 yards 80% of the time I have to question you handicap.

And this is precisely what I mean when I often argue people don't understand how anyone other than himself plays golf.


Most people, on here and otherwise, seem to think the difference between a 5 and a 25 is the difference between putting for birdie and carding a bunch of Xs. It's actually slightly more than the difference between putting for par and putting for bogey.


When I played the actual round against the older guy in his 60s I mentioned before, the difference in our scores was, he chipped and putted for par, I chipped and putted for bogey and occasionally double. It didn't matter how far each of us hit the ball, it mattered what we did around the green. He had a scratch short game, I had the short game of a HHer.


Too many people on here conflate HHers who can actually play a little and absolute beginners. If you're breaking 100 regularly, as many HHers do, you're not a beginner in any sense of the word. Unless you're my friend Matt, who shot in the 90s from the start, and shoots much better now.


I hope we get to tee it up someday, but if we ever do, that likely means I actually made something of my life, in which case I'll be playing a whole lot more and you won't get to enjoy the me that I am now.

[George Pazin]

George,


If you hit a 7 iron 170 because you can why not choose to hit it 155? It honestly makes no sense for a poor golfer to swing hard enough to hit a 7 iron 170 yds. Why not make the leap to being a good golfer and focus more on trajectory than distance?

Honestly, I don't know how to make that change. I swing the way I swing. I don't know how to trade distance for control. When I shorten up, nothing really changes. I don't really ever hit it 190 with my 7, unless the course is baked out completely. My mythical numbers for my 10 shots were 170, 167, 172, 160, 173, 170, 166, 160, 40, 50, 110. That's about my guess for how I'd disperse 10 shots with my 7. Mean 137.8, mode 170. I don't feel like I'm going all out, though my playing partners may disagree. I'm trying to make controlled solid contact.


I don't know how to control trajectory either. My shots go high. Really high. I have a friend with a simulator like the one on Golf Channel Morning Drive and the first pitching wedge I hit, I hit the ceiling. He was shocked. He said he needs to use a lob wedge to do that. He's about a 3 handicap.

[Kalen Braley]

I agree George.


I think there is a misunderstanding of high cappers' games.  12 years ago, I was playing semi-regular (5-6 times/month) and breaking 85 most times I went out, and even broke 80 a few times.


Today, I still have all the shots in the bag, I just don't have the consistency anymore....so instead of 82-83, I mess up a few shots here and there, add a couple of penalty strokes and i'm at 95....

[Carl Nichols]

8

I hope you’re joking. That’s way too many. The correct number is 5, maybe 6.

Not joking at all.  8 clubs, 8 degree increments between irons.  I believe you could play any golf course with such a configuration.  For example:

1 - Driver
2 - 3 hybrid
3 - 24 degree iron (4/5)
4 - 32 degree iron (6/7)
5 - 40 degree iron (8/9)
6 - 48 degree PW
7 - 56 degree SW
8 - Putter

Of course you could adjust each of these to fit your game and skill set (I think I might go with 22 degree through 54 degree irons), and of course you could reduce the number by increasing the gaps between clubs, or accepting limitations on one end or the other, but I think 8 is the number where most golfers would be able to play without a significant difference in scoring.

That might be true, but Tom's question asked how many you'd carry if you had to add a stroke (or two) for each club you carry.  So the real question, on this thread at least, is whether you'd save more than 2 strokes by carrying 8 clubs instead of 6.  I'm not sure I would.  I think that after 5 or 6 clubs, the marginal benefit of each additional club is worth less than a stroke to me. 

[Brian Finn]

8

I hope you’re joking. That’s way too many. The correct number is 5, maybe 6.

Not joking at all.  8 clubs, 8 degree increments between irons.  I believe you could play any golf course with such a configuration.  For example:

1 - Driver
2 - 3 hybrid
3 - 24 degree iron (4/5)
4 - 32 degree iron (6/7)
5 - 40 degree iron (8/9)
6 - 48 degree PW
7 - 56 degree SW
8 - Putter

Of course you could adjust each of these to fit your game and skill set (I think I might go with 22 degree through 54 degree irons), and of course you could reduce the number by increasing the gaps between clubs, or accepting limitations on one end or the other, but I think 8 is the number where most golfers would be able to play without a significant difference in scoring.

That might be true, but Tom's question asked how many you'd carry if you had to add a stroke (or two) for each club you carry.  So the real question, on this thread at least, is whether you'd save more than 2 strokes by carrying 8 clubs instead of 6.  I don't think I would.  I think that after 5 or 6 clubs, the marginal benefit of each additional club is worth less than a stroke to me.

I think I would save more than 2 strokes having 8 clubs vs. 6.  I believe 8 is the point at which there would be less than a stroke per club difference for me. 

[George Pazin]

Carl and Brian, what the heck are you doing answering the actual question posed by the thread originator?


-----


Kalen, thanks for the agreement, that's again my point. Are you hitting the ball substantially different than you did when you were shooting 80-85? By the silly charts, you should be X yards shorter on every club (and Y on the driver!). No, you're just not quite as consistent, and not quite as efficient.


I really think most people forget how they played when they shoot 95. In their own minds, once you're breaking 80 on a regular basis, you have to be hitting grounders to shoot 95... even though they may occasionally go out and play poorly and post an adjusted 92!

[Brian Finn]

I apologize for taking this further off topic, but I'm just going to be the jerk here, because some of what is being said in this thread is laughable.  The idea that an 18 handicapper can predictably hit their irons within a +/- 5 yard range (or even +/- 10 yards) is silly.  To then take that a step further and say an 18 handicap player can not only hit their full iron shots within a tight range, BUT ALSO adjust their swing to reliably hit 50% - 90% shots is ridiculous!

An 18 handicap means the player's ten best scores (out of the last 20) are somewhere in the low 90s, perhaps with a high 80s score on occasion.  The ten rounds not counted toward their handicap are in the mid 90s or higher.  So, 18 handicappers don't shoot an average score of 90-92, they shoot somewhere closer to 95 on average. 

Of course high handicappers have terrible short games.  They are generally happy to have a chip or sand shot simply reach the putting surface, and routinely 3 putt.  They could probably lower their handicap most by practicing their short game.  However, this does not imply that their game from 75 to 200+ yards is no problem.  18 handicappers pretty much suck at everything. 

Let's say we take ten 18 handicap players to a driving range and (after as much warm up as they prefer) ask them to state their average/target distance with a 7 iron.  Given ten swings, how many of the ten players could hit 7 out of 10 shots within +/- 5 yards of their chosen distance?  I would say 1 or 2, maximum.  Many on this thread seem to contend it would be 8 to 10 of them.

Bringing it back around to the topic of this thread, the reason high handicap players can use fewer clubs (say 6 to and still shoot approximately the same as with 14 clubs is because they aren't good enough for the precision offered by additional clubs to matter.  Frankly, the same pretty much goes for all but the very best players.  I include myself in this group of lesser players (90% or more of folks that play golf), which is why I think I could shoot about the same score with 8 clubs as with 14...but not because I have incredible control of half and 3/4 shots when I am in between clubs (I do love to try to hit these shots, and they are thrilling when executed well).  It's because I am not good enough for it to matter.