Reunderstanding Ross

[Sven Nilsen]

The origins of the Currier Course in Peterborough, NH were covered recently in another thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,22627.msg1577846.html#msg1577846

Makes sense to add this work in here as well.

July 9, 1932 Boston Globe -



June 16, 1932 Peterborough Transcript -

[Sven Nilsen]

Plymouth CC is covered earlier in the thread.  The story is that the club started with a 9 hole course in 1910 and Ross added 9 holes in the early '20s.  The old 9 holes were outclassed by the new 9, so the club decided to bring Ross back in to add 9 more.

With the addition of the new 9 holes, in 1930 PCC opted to make the original 9 available to the public, with their pro Tom Vinton given the opportunity to run that course.  The experiment was shot-lived, by 1935 the club took back in the original 9 and operated as a 27 hole facility.

In addition to being responsible for the new full 18 hole course, Ross also built a miniature 18 hole course that was deemed part of the public facility.


If you compare the 1929 Map of the Course prepared by Ross to what is on the ground today, there a few differences.  If anyone knows the story on the several holes that exist today that aren't on that map, please let me know.  I am guessing that the modern course borrowed a few holes from the original 9, and is now an amalgam of all three 9 hole courses.

July 1, 1930 Boston Globe -





July 28, 1932 Boston Globe -



April 30, 1935 Boston Globe -

[Sven Nilsen]

A quick spotlight on Tedesco, and I'm hoping Brad Tufts chimes in with any information to add to what is included below.

The club was organized in 1900 with a 6 hole course (quickly expanded to 9), with a new 9 holer built in 1902/03 at a new site.

1901 Harpers Official Golf Guide -



1902 Official Golf Guide -



May 1903 Golf Magazine -





Sept. 1903 Golf Magazine -



Ross shows up in 1912 (as noted earlier in the thread) and adds 9 new holes and reworks the existing 9.

Feb. 1912 American Golfer -



July 8, 1912 Christian Science Monitor -



Around 1926 the club decided to expand to 36 holes.

Jan. 1926 Golf Illustrated -



May 1926 Golf Illustrated -



I don't have information on who completed the first 9 additional holes.  The second 9 appears to have been a joint effort between Ross and Wayne Stiles, although the later two articles suggest Stiles was primarily responsible for the work along with club member Eugene Clapp.

Jan. 17, 1929 Boston Globe -



June 20, 1930 Boston Globe -





Feb. 7, 1931 Boston Globe -



In 1932 Tedesco's clubhouse burned down (leading to some of the confusion over its architectural history).  The following article notes Ross offering a few suggestions on the course at this time, with my guess being this work was on what was considered the 18 hole 6,400 yard championship course at that time.

April 4, 1932 Boston Globe -





By 1934 the club was still tinkering with the layout and adding new holes.  The account below gives credit for the course to Ross, but I would guess several of the holes used were part of the addition made by Stiles.

April 6, 1934 Boston Globe -



What is left is a bit of a mystery.  We know Ross was wholly responsible for at least 9 holes of the 36 holes that would be built, with Stiles most like responsible for at least 9 of the others.  It is possible that the two men collaborated on the last 9 holes built.  The story that Skip Wogan rearranged the course in the mid-1930's seem erroneous, as that work apparently was done pursuant to the suggestions of Ross.  Brad has also indicated that Ross left notes with the club around 1937 for additional work.

The biggest part of the mystery for me is trying to decipher what holes ended up comprising the course that exists today, what holes were abandoned and what holes ended up as the "Gun Club Nine" and spun off as the public Sunbeam Golf Course.  There are clues in the descriptions of the locations of the new holes carved through the rock strewn forest area that was developed in the late 1920's, as well as the description of holes located on the "bluff side" of the property.  Hopefully Brad has a good deal more information on this front.

[MCirba]

Great stuff, Sven.   I know Brad has been trying to get as much information together as possible in this regard.

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Sven, I can actually answer most of your questions at the end of your post above, although there are some gray areas that still exist in my knowledge that I cannot prove.  I have actually never seen the Clapp profile or the Rises Above Flames articles, despite going through the whole Globe archives search from 1899 to today a few months ago!!



As far as I know, the only Ross involvement was the addition of a second nine in 1912, and a list of suggestions made during his visit in October 1931 (not 1937 as I may have mis-informed before).  We didn't exactly "hire Ross" to do a wholesale redo in the 30s, although its clear TCC did use a few of his suggestions, with a gray area surrounding how much work he oversaw.  Ross made suggestions to the 27-hole configuration, so he wasn't in charge of moving back to 18 later on. 


Wogan was in charge of pulling the course back from 27 holes into an eighteen-hole routing in the late 30s, and my guess (unproven speculation ahead!) is that Ross may have recommended him as a cheaper former protégé, or the TCC board realized Wogan would just be cheaper to hire. 

The "Ross Design" reference in the "Rises" article seems on the surface to be in error due to the recently-finished Stiles/Clapp nine, but it's oddly correct due to Ross adding 9 holes in 1912, and Ross doing ongoing small amounts of work or giving suggestions at TCC in the early 30s.


My big question is Who did the Gun Club Nine?  It opened in 1927, and had been sold by mid-1931 as a mosquito-ridden place that didn't get much play, as it was built in a boggy area.  It was operated until 1953 as the public Sunbeam GC.  Stiles was working on the Clapp nine from the late 20s to that nine opening in 1930, so maybe it was Stiles?


It's so confusing because there are so many references to Tedesco "adding nine" or "adding 18." The cadence was really 9 in 1903, 9 in 1912, 9 in 1927, and 9 in 1930, then minus the Gun Club (1927) in 1931, and minus the Clapp nine (1930) as an entity in 1936ish).  The Clapp nine and the Gun Club nine were never "an 18" at any point, and the Clapp nine was incorporated into the already-existing 18 to make a new 18-hole routing that was the longest TCC ever had, with 9 other holes tossed aside as a "short course."  With two new nines (Gun Club and Clapp) in various stages of construction from the late 20s into the early 30s, there's no way to know which one all the articles reference.


So, in its 36 hole "heyday" that really only lasted about 18 months (!), it was the Long Course (18 holes made from 9 originals and 9 Stiles/Clapp), the short course (9 originals), and the Gun Club mostly across Tedesco St.


I have intricate notes on the current holes and where they came from, I can/will get into that tonight!

[Sven Nilsen]

Brad:


It seems that the club's intentions in the late '20's was to have two 18 hole courses.  That the second 18 was added in two pieces (and on separate ends of the property) isn't in and of itself unusual.


The timing of the impetus of this addition of 18 holes just before the depression is notable.  One can understand how the club could have been able to support two 18's in 1928, but may have been looking at different circumstances only a few years later.


The 1929 article above is also a bit confusing, as it appears to suggest that the 4th set of 9 holes was designed by Stiles and Ross.


Sven

[Brad Tufts]

Hi Sven,

Here's my interpretation:

I agree that it's confusing.  I know it's just semantics really, but the presentation was always a core 18 (of different configurations), and one or two other nines in play.  The "Short Course" and the Gun Club 9 were never added together on a scorecard, as they were always presented as two separate nines.  When Stiles added 9 that was done in 1930 just beyond the core 18, it was immediately folded into a new "championship 18" (The Long Course) that was in play from 1930-1936, with the extra (and mostly the oldest) 9 holes made into a Short Course.  Because of this, the Stiles nine was never meant to be half of a completely different 18 holes than the original 18...it was meant to enhance what was already there by replacing shorter/inferior holes. 

Concerning the Depression timing, there is an article that is almost overly defensive of the club's finances during the early part of the Depression, even though they just unloaded the Gun Club 9!  It's my guess that the Gun Club 9 was already out of favor and they were looking to unload it even as the Stiles 9 was almost ready.  To me it's almost mere coincidence that all 36 was in play for maybe 1 or 2 seasons.

The 1929 article citing the board approving a Stiles/Ross joint plan makes no sense to me.  I could understand if that was the Gun Club, for which we don't have evidence of the designer, but this was winter 1929, two years after the Gun Club 9 was in play, so the article concerns the nine opened in 1930.  This is the only reference to Ross concerning this nine, with many Stiles references, including the draft plan on Stiles paper in our centennial book.  I also have the list of Ross recommendations from 1931, which includes critique of the 1930 Stiles nine...it wouldn't make much sense for Ross to critique holes he had a hand in designing only a year or two earlier!!

There is another Globe article where a Tedesco official is quoted basically as "we're thinking of some changes so we will contact Wayne Stiles or Donald Ross and figure it out" so it seems to me even the TCC board wasn't always sure of who was on retainer at the given moment...

[Sven Nilsen]

Brad:


Do you have anything that confirms when exactly the Sunbeam 9 holer was spun off?


As for the financial stability of the club, the purchase of additional land, two fires and the complete reconstruction of the clubhouse must have taken its toll.  At some point the club voted to do away with its board of governors and turned the entire operation over to the guidance of the pro Alex Ellis.


In 1935 it filed for reorganization in bankruptcy court.


Sven

[Brad Tufts]

The opening tourney for the Gun Club 9 was on 9/4/1927  (from the Globe article dated the following day).


There is an article on 2/5/1931 (Boston Daily Globe) about selling the Gun Club 9 to Arthur Little, basically because it got no play after the Stiles nine opened.  The sale had not quite gone through yet, but sounds like it was well on its way.  There are no mentions of the Gun Club after this point in the Globe.  Included in the article are some other interesting tidbits, like an amateur valuation of the 224 acres TCC owned at the time (including all four nines) at $1M, and a mention of 1930 having over 27,000 rounds played over the four nines.


Tedesco's prominence in Mass (or even National) golf seemed to ebb right from 1930.  From basically 1900-1930 it was one of the best-known courses in Massachusetts, maybe top 10 in prominence or thereabouts, if not higher at times.  We had nationally-competitive head pros, exhibitions of famous players, and briefly 36 holes! 


After the Depression dimmed Tedesco's star, we just muddled along like most clubs, hosting an MGA event every 10 years or so without much fanfare.  It's sad how the coverage in the paper went from mentioning every time a course added a hole or changed a tee box in the fun times of the 20s, then as tough economic times and WW2 came to the fore, the innocence wore off and news took on the flavor that continues today, only talking about politics and people killed in various ways, etc.

[Sven Nilsen]

Added Mississauga G&CC in Ontario to the 1919 additions post.

June 21, 1919 Calgary Herald -

[Sven Nilsen]

In addition to his earlier work at Glens Falls CC, Ross would return in the late 1930's to rework many of the bunkers.

June 28, 1938 Post-Star -



April 21, 1939 Post-Star -

[Sven Nilsen]

Another one, but this time in a consulting role.

Ross helped select the site for the Kenwood CC in Cincinnati, which was an offshoot of the downtown Cincinnati Club.  There were plans for 27 holes initially, and then for 36.  William Diddel ended up being engaged to do the work.

Nov. 13, 1929 Cincinnati Enquirer -

[Sven Nilsen]

One that bears a little more looking into.

The Florence CC in Florence, SC was built in 1923.  In 1938 plans were put in place to extend the course to 18 holes, with an article noting the plans for the new 9 holes had been prepared by E. S. Draper when the course was first built.  The Ross/Draper relationship was touched on earlier in the thread. 

Without any additional information it is hard to say if Ross had any involvement with the initial 1923 plan for 18 holes, but I do not know of any Draper golf course projects were Ross wasn't involved.  And the timing makes sense for when they were collaborating.

Dec. 4, 1938 Florence Morning News -

[Jeff Schley]

Kudos to those doing the legwork on this wonderful thread.  Got reinvigorated about Ross this summer playing Essex County Club and Plainfield back to back days.  Love his greens (when I'm putting well).

[Bill Healy]

To: Sven Nilsen and all students of Donald Ross,
Re:  Hyannisport Club
In 1930-32, Donald J. Ross Associates delivered a routing map, field notes, hole sketches, and green sketches for the reconstruction of the golf course at the Hyannisport Club, and these documents appear to be the work of Walter Irving Johnson.  However, I cannot find any information regarding a visit(s) by Donald Ross to Hyannis Port.  Can anyone help me with this dilemma?
Thanks,  Bill Healy

[Sven Nilsen]

To: Sven Nilsen and all students of Donald Ross,
Re:  Hyannisport Club
In 1930-32, Donald J. Ross Associates delivered a routing map, field notes, hole sketches, and green sketches for the reconstruction of the golf course at the Hyannisport Club, and these documents appear to be the work of Walter Irving Johnson.  However, I cannot find any information regarding a visit(s) by Donald Ross to Hyannis Port.  Can anyone help me with this dilemma?
Thanks,  Bill Healy

Bill:


My apologies, as I owe you a response to your email (its been a busy couple of months).  I don't have anything specific linking Ross to Hyannisport, but if anything pops up I'll pass it on. 


The 1930-32 timing is interesting (and it should be noted the DRS lists 1936), as this would have been towards the tail end of Johnson's work with Ross, with the depression putting a dent in the work he was able to provide his associates.  On one hand, Johnson was known to be Ross's primary draftsman, so there's a good chance any plans drawn up by Johnson originated in Ross's original notes and sketches.  On the other hand, at this point Johnson had already done his own design work at Potowomut. 


If forced to guess, if the items were delivered under the Donald Ross & Associates name, Ross probably had a good bit of involvement.  Even late in his career, he was still making site visits, and Hyannisport was in his stomping grounds.


Sven 

[Sven Nilsen]

The 1926 Listing above notes Hyde Park CC in Jacksonville, FL.

From the article below, it would appear this was not a Ross.

May 13, 1926 Miami News -

[MCirba]

Saw that one too, Sven.   


That would pretty much confirm Stanley from my perspective.   Others had speculated that Thompson may have just built the course from a Ross plan but that seems unlikely without additional evidence..

[Anthony Gholz]

Sven:


This looks like 1926 from the article.  For what its worth, Stanley Thompson did build an Alison course in 1922, the York Downs G&CC in Toronto.  And he advertised it with a picture of an Alison green in the February 1923 issue of Golf Illustrated:  Stanley Thompson & Co. Golf Course Planning and Construction.


Anthony

[Sven Nilsen]

I've seen speculation that Ross was involved with the Houston CC in the 1920's, but the sources note the attribution has never been proven.

Here's an April 18, 1920 Houston Post article discussing Ross redoing the greens.

Today this course is known as the Gus Wortham Golf Course.

[Sven Nilsen]

Update on Chillicothe CC.  Ross was here around 1915-16 (the DRS List has 1915), and the course was reworked as noted in the following article. 



May 29, 1922 Chillicothe Gazette -

[Sven Nilsen]

In one of the obituaries printed for Ross (from the April 28, 1948 The Post Star), the author notes that Ross "termed the Country Club of Waterbury course...the most difficult he had encountered."  Most of us are fairly familiar with the glacial deposition that covered the New England countryside.  Here are a bunch of photos taken from the club's website that depict what it was like to build a course on that type of terrain.

1st Hole -



2nd Hole -





 3rd Hole -





8th Hole -



9th Hole -





10th Hole -



11th Hole -



14th Hole -



15th Hole -

[Bret Lawrence]

These pictures are great.  I have to say I really appreciate Donald Ross going through all the effort to build this course.  He clearly got frustrated and took it out on the course, because it's a brute! But it is an interesting course with a lot of variety in the Par 4's. Many of the rock pile features still exist.  They have obviously been covered up with soil and long grass, but they make for some unique shots if you find them or get near them.


The pictures above of the 3rd and 8th hole look very reminiscent of today's holes.  That huge boulder on 8 is still there too.


I think the picture labelled 1st hole is actually looking over the 10th green and down the 11th fairway. Way off in the distance on top of the hill is the 6th fairway.  If you stand on the 11th tee today, it's a very similar view.

[Bret Lawrence]

Added Mississauga G&CC in Ontario to the 1919 additions post.

June 21, 1919 Calgary Herald -

Sven,


Here are two more brief articles on Mississauga.

Canadian Golfer., April 1919:



Canadian Golfer., November 1919:



Bret

[Bret Lawrence]

I have been reading through a few old Canadian Golfer Magazines.  Kanawaki appears to be interested in Ross as early as 1917.


Canadian Golfer., April 1917: