[John Blain]

I'm always a little surprised at the love Mimosa Hills is given.  I much preferred Miami Valley for example. 

I think Lulu might actually suffer a bit from its "little gem" reputation.   There are some very good golf holes there. 

I have Chattanooga CC and Cherokee CC in the Volunteer state a little lower than most here as well - a full notch below Memphis CC which retains far more of its original design. 

Delighted to see Teugega highly rated notwithstanding its conditioning and maintenance.

I find Idle Hour stronger than most as well, but I suspect is not as widely visited as many others.

Any love for Pinehurst #1 or #3?

I'm really enjoying everyone's thought.  How wonderful to have such extensive work of a single golf architect so that virtually everyone is in a position to provide meaningful comment. 

Mimosa Hills IMO is an example of what I call the quintessential Ross course.  I find it fascinating how much of "small town America" boasts great old courses (hidden gems) and Morganton, NC fits that description. It's a smallish town that once thrived and MHCC I'm sure was a happening place during the heyday. Also, being the home course of Billy Joe Patton adds to its legacy. Yes a few holes, especially on the second nine were over treed but recently the club has been removing trees and making improvements.  Which I find impressive giving the current economic situation at the club (declining membership numbers, welcoming outside play, etc.). Having said all that it is a course my wife and I drive 1 hour, 20 minutes to play multiple times each year because it's a fun course with low key vibe.


As for Teugega I can only say the course hired a new superintendent last year, Ian Daniels. He is a young father of three and excited for the opportunity. Ian doesn't possess a wealth of Ross knowledge but has expressed an interest and desire to learn more. I am not certain to his budgetary constraints but I believe given a little more time you should see improvement in the conditioning and maintenance of the course.


Cheers,

I played Teugega a couple of times last year and thought the conditioning was fine. In fact it's a lot better than it used to be years ago. Ian Daniels is doing a fine job. The greens were absolutely pure. The bunkers could use a bit of work but I think that is a bit of a budget issue. TCC gets better every year...


Speaking of Ross in upstate NY why does Brook-Lea CC in Rochester get no love? Maybe because it's on the other side of town from Oak Hill, Monroe, CC of Rochester? Terrific course....

[Jon Claydon]

I'll nominate Exmoor as a Doak 6.  Beverly is better but it's close. 

Also Old Elm is outstanding, especially after the recent work.  Would rank higher. 

[Ira Fishman]

As a Chicago area native, I am curious as to how Ross ended up designing so many courses in the area.  I remember playing some in my youth that would not make this list, but were good courses (LaGrange, Oak Park, Hinsdale).


Thanks,


Ira

[Michael Moore]

My devotion to Maine golf and fond memories of a long afternoon win out over my distaste for the numbers. Tom, is York Golf & Tennis Ross enough to be on this list?

[Terry Lavin]

As a Chicago area native, I am curious as to how Ross ended up designing so many courses in the area.  I remember playing some in my youth that would not make this list, but were good courses (LaGrange, Oak Park, Hinsdale).


Thanks,


Ira

Ross buffed up a lot of designs by Bendelow and others, to great effect in some instances. As for the three west suburban courses you mention, one might cobble six from each as a candidate to stand among the best Ross courses but none of the three truly stands out.

[Ira Fishman]

Terry,


Agree regarding those courses, but what brought Ross to Chicago at the outset? A particular commission? A patron? Easy money?


Ira

[Sven Nilsen]

Ira:


The easy answer is Old Elm (and the money behind it).  Everything after that were attempts to catch a rising star.


Sven

[Donnie Beck]

Shennecossett's original routing is easily a solid 7 and should definitely be included in Ross's Top 100 courses. In it's current state it is still one of my favorite local courses but I would only give it a at best a rating of 5.  Tom asked for a list of Top 100 Ross courses not a list of Mungeam courses so IMO Shennecossett has to be added to the list.

[Josh Tarble]

Donnie,


I'm right with you.  Shennecossett is really enjoyable.  There are some terrific holes out there and even with the new ones (that definitely detract from the experience), I'd put Shennecossett at the same level as Timuquana (one I played recently) and close to Broadmoor (my home course). 

[Tom_Doak]

Shennecossett's original routing is easily a solid 7 and should definitely be included in Ross's Top 100 courses. In it's current state it is still one of my favorite local courses but I would only give it a at best a rating of 5.  Tom asked for a list of Top 100 Ross courses not a list of Mungeam courses so IMO Shennecossett has to be added to the list.

So you're saying Shennecossett WAS one of Ross's top 100 courses, but ISN'T now.  [Which is where we had it.]


Josh Tarble's logic could be used to put another 40 courses into the top 100 list, but there is only room for 100.




***  We could have a vote on this list for everyone on the board who's interested, if someone wants to pursue that.  I don't have the time or the inclination to take it to that level.  This Confidential Guide - based list is good enough for what I was aiming for, which was to try and sort out what would be the 100th best Donald Ross course.


It turns out it is a course that we think is a 5+ on the Doak Scale, that at least someone would give a 6.  Which is VERY impressive to me. I would guess there are less than 1000 courses in the world that my co-authors and I would give a 6 on the Doak Scale, and maybe 1000 more to which someone else would assign a 6.  So Ross has designed between 5 and 10% of the best courses in the world, on his own.

[Ira Fishman]

The next question I think is what are the common elements of Ross Courses that make them so appealing to many people.  Of the ones I have played, the fact that the green sites seem so natural and logical is at the top of my list of positive, common elements. I would surmise that this is linked to routing that also makes the best unforced use of the land.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

The next question I think is what are the common elements of Ross Courses that make them so appealing to many people.  Of the ones I have played, the fact that the green sites seem so natural and logical is at the top of my list of positive, common elements. I would surmise that this is linked to routing that also makes the best unforced use of the land.


Ira

Green sites = routing.


I think what Ross was best at was doing routings inside a rectangular site.  He had a knack for mixing up the direction and flow of holes, finding ways to include diagonals, and generally avoiding back-and-forth routings unless the contour [Inverness] was good enough to overcome that.

[Donnie Beck]

Shennecossett's original routing is easily a solid 7 and should definitely be included in Ross's Top 100 courses. In it's current state it is still one of my favorite local courses but I would only give it a at best a rating of 5.  Tom asked for a list of Top 100 Ross courses not a list of Mungeam courses so IMO Shennecossett has to be added to the list.

So you're saying Shennecossett WAS one of Ross's top 100 courses, but ISN'T now.  [Which is where we had it.]


Josh Tarble's logic could be used to put another 40 courses into the top 100 list, but there is only room for 100.




***  We could have a vote on this list for everyone on the board who's interested, if someone wants to pursue that.  I don't have the time or the inclination to take it to that level.  This Confidential Guide - based list is good enough for what I was aiming for, which was to try and sort out what would be the 100th best Donald Ross course.


It turns out it is a course that we think is a 5+ on the Doak Scale, that at least someone would give a 6.  Which is VERY impressive to me. I would guess there are less than 1000 courses in the world that my co-authors and I would give a 6 on the Doak Scale, and maybe 1000 more to which someone else would assign a 6.  So Ross has designed between 5 and 10% of the best courses in the world, on his own.

Shennecossett is a gem!

As far as I know, out of all of the courses Ross built, his only links style courses were Shennecossett and Seminole. The 1919 Ross routing was left pretty much intact until it was sold to the town in 1969. Over time bunkers were filled to speed play as a muni but it was still an under-rated gem (IMO one of the top Muni's in the country) until the town did a land swap with Pfizer in 1997 and hired Mark Mungeam to build 4 new holes. Unfortunately to fit in the new holes 7 original Ross holes were lost. It is still a very good golf course and worth playing today, but the original was something really special that didn't get the credit it deserved.

[Mike Hendren]

Here are the 85 Ross courses I've played that I would rate 5 or better.  Hope it helps.

Alamance	5		Kennett Square	5
Aronimink	7		Lake Sunapee	5
Augusta CC	6		Linville	6
Barton Hills	6		Lu Lu	5
Bedford Springs	7		Metacomet	5
Belleview Biltmore	5		Miami Valley	5
Beverly	7		Mid Pines	7
Biltmore Forest	6		Mimosa Hills	6
Broadmoor (IN)	6		Minikahda	7
Brookside	8		Monroe	6
Cape Fear	5		Mountain Ridge	7
Carolina	7		Myers Park	6
Catawba	5		Northland	8
Cedar Rapids	8		Oak Hill (East)	5
Charles River	6		Oak Hill (West)	6
Charlotte	6		OaklandHills(S)	7
Chattanooga	5		Oyster Harbors	6
Cherokee	5		Pinehurst #2	9
Chester Valley	5		Pine Needles	6
Chevy Chase	5		Plainfield	7
Columbus	5		Raleigh	6
Congress Lake	7		Ravisloe	6
CC of Asheville	5		Rhode Island	6
CC of Buffalo	8		Roaring Gap	7
CC of York	5		Rolling Rock	7
East Lake	6		The Sagamore	6
Essex County	9		Salem	7
Forsyth	5		Schuylkill	6
Fountain Head	5		Scioto	6
Franklin Hills	7		Sedgefield	5
French Lick	7		Seminole	9
Glens Falls	6		Shaker Heights	6
Greensboro CC	5		Southern Pines	5
Grove Park Inn	5		Timuquana	6
Gulph Mills	7		Torresdale	5
Highlands	6		Vesper	6
Holston Hills	8		Wannamoisett	9
Hope Valley	7		Whitensville	7
Hyannisport	6		White Bear	8
Hyde Park	5		Winchester	6
Idle Hour	5		Woodhill	6
Interlachen	8		Worcester	6
Inverness	6

I love French Lick. I’d give it a solid 6 and put it in the same league as Broadmoor (IN,) Holston, East Lake, and Idle Hour.


I’ll mention Belle Meade in Nashville, but Doak 5 at best. I think it falls on the second 100....

Greetings Nigel.  Based upon extensive research by a member, it appears H. H. Barker was Belle Meade's architect.  Perhaps Ross had a hand in relocating a couple of holes, but any work he did has likely been plowed under by RTJ and most recently Rees.  It is also possible that Gary Roger Baird did a little work between the two Jones.

Hope to come visit this year.

Mike

[Tim Martin]

Shennecossett's original routing is easily a solid 7 and should definitely be included in Ross's Top 100 courses. In it's current state it is still one of my favorite local courses but I would only give it a at best a rating of 5.  Tom asked for a list of Top 100 Ross courses not a list of Mungeam courses so IMO Shennecossett has to be added to the list.

So you're saying Shennecossett WAS one of Ross's top 100 courses, but ISN'T now.  [Which is where we had it.]


Josh Tarble's logic could be used to put another 40 courses into the top 100 list, but there is only room for 100.




***  We could have a vote on this list for everyone on the board who's interested, if someone wants to pursue that.  I don't have the time or the inclination to take it to that level.  This Confidential Guide - based list is good enough for what I was aiming for, which was to try and sort out what would be the 100th best Donald Ross course.


It turns out it is a course that we think is a 5+ on the Doak Scale, that at least someone would give a 6.  Which is VERY impressive to me. I would guess there are less than 1000 courses in the world that my co-authors and I would give a 6 on the Doak Scale, and maybe 1000 more to which someone else would assign a 6.  So Ross has designed between 5 and 10% of the best courses in the world, on his own.

Shennecossett is a gem!

As far as I know, out of all of the courses Ross built, his only links style courses were Shennecossett and Seminole. The 1919 Ross routing was left pretty much intact until it was sold to the town in 1969. Over time bunkers were filled to speed play as a muni but it was still an under-rated gem (IMO one of the top Muni's in the country) until the town did a land swap with Pfizer in 1997 and hired Mark Mungeam to build 4 new holes. Unfortunately to fit in the new holes 7 original Ross holes were lost. It is still a very good golf course and worth playing today, but the original was something really special that didn't get the credit it deserved.

Donnie-I agree with everything you said regarding Shennecossett and again the Mungeam holes don't fit with what was originally there. There is nothing special about his holes on the other side of Plant Street with the exception of the green site on 16. That said I love to play there especially in the Winter and Eric Morrison does a great job in taking care of and presenting the golf course. What is left of the Ross holes is fantastic.

[Jeff Shelman]

I was inspired to cross reference this with the Golfweek Classic lists. I used the 2017 top 100 and the 2016 next 100.

There are four courses that GW ranks in the top 200 that weren't listed in the top 100 Ross courses:

Wykagyl (96 on GW list)
Cape Fear (187)
Chevy Chase (189)
CC of York (194)

The thing I thought was really impressive is that in the GW top 200, Ross designed 63 courses. That's a pretty good percentage.

[Tommy Williamsen]

These lists beg the question, "When is a Ross a Ross?" Just for fun I dragged out my Chevy Chase history book. Ross did indeed design a course at CC. It wasn't too many years later that Allsion came in for a complete  redesign. Since then many other hands have been there. There is no Ross left. So who designed it?

[Rick Shefchik]

Tommy, that's a question that needs to be answered about six times in Minnesota. The only original Ross is Woodhill, so no problem there. He totally redesigned Northland (orig. Ward Ames, possible Bendalow expansion), Minikahda (orig. Watson) and Interlachen (orig. Watson,) so he rightly gets credit for those. He replaced four of the original Willie Park holes at Minneapolis GC and worked extensively on the others, so that's a Ross, in most opinions. And WBYC is probably not a Ross, because there's no discernible, documented evidence of what he did to William Watson's original layout. However, we know he was there and did something, and the members have been calling it a Ross for about a hundred years, so there's that...

[Matt MacIver]

...

[john_stiles]

Brad Becken asked me to post his list of his 100 favorite Ross courses. He ranks his top 25. The next 75 are in alphabetical order.  In October, 2017 Brad completed his eight year quest to play all 359 Ross courses that still exist in the US and Canada. Brad is on Board of Directors of the Donald Ross Society.

Donald Ross Top 100 Courses Top 25 1 Seminole GC 2 Highlands CC (NC) 3 White Bear YC 4 East Lake GC 5 Glens Falls CC 6 Worcester CC 7 Salem CC 8 Idle Hour CC 9 Bald Peak Colony Club 10 Barton Hills CC 11 Essex County Club 12 Wannamoisett CC 13 Pinehurst #2 14 Rosedale GC (Canada) 15 Aronimink GC 16 Oak Hill CC-East 17 Inverness Club 18 Holston Hills CC 19 Concord CC 20 Interlachen CC 21 Charlotte CC 22 Philadelphia Cricket Club-Wissahickon 23 Oakland Hills - South 24  Scioto CC 25 Mountain Ridge CC Next 75, Not Ranked In Order Allegheny CC Athens CC (GA) Augusta CC (GA) Belle Meade CC Beverly CC Biltmore Forest CC Brae Burn CC Broadmoor GC - East Brookside CC Cape Fear CC CC of Birmingham-West CC of Buffalo CC of Detroit CC of Rochester CC of Waterbury CC or York Cedar Rapids CC Charles River CC Chattanooga Golf  & CC Cohasset CC Columbia CC Congressional CC - Blue Crestmont CC Exmoor CC Forsyth CC French Lick Resort - Hill Course Gulf Stream GC Hope Valley CC Hyannisport Club Hyde Park Golf & CC (Ohio) Irondequoit CC Kahkwa Club Lake Sunapee CC Linville GC Longmeadow CC Memphis CC Mid Pines GC Mimosa Hills CC Minikahda Club Minneapolis GC Monroe GC (NY) Montclair GC Mountain Brook CC Muskegon CC Newport CC Northland CC Oak Hill CC – West Oakland Hills  - North Oconomowoc GC Old Elm Club Oyster Harbors Club Palm Beach CC Peninsula Golf & CC Plainfield CC Portland CC (ME) Pt Judith CC Rhode Island CC Riverside CC (Canada) Roaring Gap Club Sakonnet GC Sedgefield CC Shaker Heights CC Siwanoy CC Springfield CC (Ohio) St. David's GC Teugega CC The Whippoorwill Club Timuquana CC Wampanoag CC Warwick CC Whitinsville GC Wianno GC Winchester CC Wykagyl CC York Golf & CC (ME)

[BCowan]

My 2 cents,


1. Pinehurst #2         9
2. Holston Hills         8.4
3. Canton Brookside  8.3 (Could be a 9)(Best Ross greens I've played by a mile)
4. Mid Pines              8.3
5. Franklin Hills         8.1 (Could be a 9)
6. Inverness             7.6 (Might be 9 this year)
7. Timuquana           7.1
8. Scioto                  7
9. Pine Needles        6.9 (haven't played latest version)
10. Ravisloe             6.8
11. Oakland Hills S   6.7
12. Athens CC          6.4
13. Barton Hills        6
13. Broadmoor (IN)  6
13. Hope Valley        6
16 Muskegon          5.9  (Great land, so much potential)
17 Grosse Ile          5.7  (2nd best set of Ross Greens)
18. Wilmington        5.6
19 Oakland Hills N  5.3
20. Roseland Park    5    (Need to play again, loved it)
21 Southern Pines   5
22 Western             4.8

[Ian Andrew]

Rosedale in Toronto I an interesting case for accreditation.
Greens were rebuilt by Ross, some are still there, others are now gone.
But it's originally a Bendelow layout.

[Adam T]

Shennecossett's original routing is easily a solid 7 and should definitely be included in Ross's Top 100 courses. In it's current state it is still one of my favorite local courses but I would only give it a at best a rating of 5.  Tom asked for a list of Top 100 Ross courses not a list of Mungeam courses so IMO Shennecossett has to be added to the list.

So you're saying Shennecossett WAS one of Ross's top 100 courses, but ISN'T now.  [Which is where we had it.]


Josh Tarble's logic could be used to put another 40 courses into the top 100 list, but there is only room for 100.




***  We could have a vote on this list for everyone on the board who's interested, if someone wants to pursue that.  I don't have the time or the inclination to take it to that level.  This Confidential Guide - based list is good enough for what I was aiming for, which was to try and sort out what would be the 100th best Donald Ross course.


It turns out it is a course that we think is a 5+ on the Doak Scale, that at least someone would give a 6.  Which is VERY impressive to me. I would guess there are less than 1000 courses in the world that my co-authors and I would give a 6 on the Doak Scale, and maybe 1000 more to which someone else would assign a 6.  So Ross has designed between 5 and 10% of the best courses in the world, on his own.

Shennecossett is a gem!

As far as I know, out of all of the courses Ross built, his only links style courses were Shennecossett and Seminole. The 1919 Ross routing was left pretty much intact until it was sold to the town in 1969. Over time bunkers were filled to speed play as a muni but it was still an under-rated gem (IMO one of the top Muni's in the country) until the town did a land swap with Pfizer in 1997 and hired Mark Mungeam to build 4 new holes. Unfortunately to fit in the new holes 7 original Ross holes were lost. It is still a very good golf course and worth playing today, but the original was something really special that didn't get the credit it deserved.

Donnie-I agree with everything you said regarding Shennecossett and again the Mungeam holes don't fit with what was originally there. There is nothing special about his holes on the other side of Plant Street with the exception of the green site on 16. That said I love to play there especially in the Winter and Eric Morrison does a great job in taking care of and presenting the golf course. What is left of the Ross holes is fantastic.

A fitting Facebook post from Shennecossett today, with a rendering of the original routing: https://www.facebook.com/shennygolf/posts/1560029807384778. Imagine how amazing it must have been to play that 18! (FWIW - 15-17 might not fit in perfectly with the course, but I have still always enjoyed those holes coming down the stretch in matches).

[Mike Bodo]

Tom, I gotta put a plug in for Western Golf and Country Club to be put on this list. It's a more challenging course than either Grosse Isle or DGC (North), with more elevation changes than the latter to boot. In addition, you gave DGC North a 5 on the 2017 SE Michigan GCA Top 25 list, same as you did Western, yet Western didn't make your 64 - 81 ranked group of courses. I know you said that the courses in the latter groupings weren't ranked in any particular order, but Western should be in the Top 100 without question and I'd argue should crack the Top 50.

[Mike Bodo]

One more...


Sara Bay CC  (Sarasota, FL)        6


Very cool place.  Bobby Jones apparently hung out there quite a bit prior to building ANGC.


TS

Sara Bay is a very good course. Got the chance to play it last year.

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