Raynor and The Evangelist of Golf

[Nigel Islam]

So with several recent new course attributions being discovered by our great discussion group, I would like to re visit some of the courses George listed in his book's timeline as being attributed to Seth Raynor. Several of these still remain quite mysterious to me, and I was hoping we might be able to re-examine some of the courses;


1. Crawford CC, NY Course revision 1923-1924. This is in C&W as well. WHERE IS THIS COURSE?
2. Rumson CC, NJ Course revision 1924. I am skeptical Raynor had anything to do here.
3. Thousand Islands CC, NY 1922-23; Anthony found an attribution to A.B. Raynor some years back. This is also in C&W.
4. Grand Hotel/Fleischmanns, Catskills NY 1920-21; George spoke to a Seiden family member who said Raynor designed the course. Was this Seth Raynor or Len Rayner?
5. NLE William Stauffer Estate, New Orleans 1922; 9 hole course for an NGLA member. WHERE WAS THIS?
6. NLE J.P. Knapp estate, NY; 1922; J.P. Knapp had an apartment in Manhattan and an estate in NC. His family had an estate in Suffolk County and his deceased wife had an estate on Long Island. Where was this 3 hole course?


PLANS ONLY;
7. Westchester Hills/Biltmore 1923; Anyone have anything more on this? Designed in 1913 by Peter Clark and Donald Ross
8. Hollywood CC, NJ 1916; What did Raynor do here?
9. Sequoyah CC, CA 1917
10. Santa Barabara, La Cumbre?, CA 1917
11. Breton Woods, NH 1924

[Tom_Doak]

Nigel:


I've seen George's unfinished manuscript for his Raynor book.  Some of these courses were addressed, some not, but he didn't have a lot of info on them except for some details on the William Stauffer Estate.  I don't think he had Crawford CC listed at all, as I do not remember ever hearing of it.  Not sure about Rumson.


PS  Do you really care where a three-hole course belonging to J.P. Knapp was?  That's pretty obscure and it is highly unlikely there was anything unusual there.

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel:


I've seen George's unfinished manuscript for his Raynor book.  Some of these courses were addressed, some not, but he didn't have a lot of info on them except for some details on the William Stauffer Estate.  I don't think he had Crawford CC listed at all, as I do not remember ever hearing of it.  Not sure about Rumson.


PS  Do you really care where a three-hole course belonging to J.P. Knapp was?  That's pretty obscure and it is highly unlikely there was anything unusual there.

Unfortunately, I apparently do.....

[Rees Milikin]

Nigel:


I've seen George's unfinished manuscript for his Raynor book.  Some of these courses were addressed, some not, but he didn't have a lot of info on them except for some details on the William Stauffer Estate.  I don't think he had Crawford CC listed at all, as I do not remember ever hearing of it.  Not sure about Rumson.


PS  Do you really care where a three-hole course belonging to J.P. Knapp was?  That's pretty obscure and it is highly unlikely there was anything unusual there.

Why do you care if Nigel cares?

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

I thought 3 hole courses were the future of golf?

[PCCraig]

Hate to ask this again, or thread jack, but what is holding back a release of George Bahto's Raynor book?

[Tom_Doak]

The manuscript was a work in progress. Someone has to decide how to finish it and publish it.  And everyone involved has a day job (or two or three).

[Rees Milikin]

I thought 3 hole courses were the future of golf?

I am definitely trying to thread jack, was Raynor ahead of his time with 3 hole courses?


Check out his Shotwell course that was supposed to be in the Sanford, FL area.

[Nigel Islam]

I thought 3 hole courses were the future of golf?

I am definitely trying to thread jack, was Raynor ahead of his time with 3 hole courses?


Check out his Shotwell course that was supposed to be in the Sanford, FL area.

Rees, I think George has a great schematic in the Evangelist under the Moore course, and CBM speaks off it in Scotland's gift. If I am not mistaken the original practice course at National used an Eden hole, a Short, and a Redan as well. So I think the credit would have to go to MacDonald, but it is possible this existed in Scotland before Charlie.

[Mark Pritchett]

I thought 3 hole courses were the future of golf?

Pure Gold!

[Rees Milikin]

I thought 3 hole courses were the future of golf?

They have been the future since the 20's

[Ian Andrew]

Rumson has a lot of references to Travis and Barker in the New York Times.


When Quogue Field Club was 18 holes the work "looked" like Raynor. that was because it was influenced by NLGA and done by a former professional from the club. It's too easy to be fooled into seeing what you want to see ...