Donald J. Ross Associates

[Mike Bodo]

Does anyone know what became of those who worked for Donald Ross following his passing in 1948, as well as Donald J. Ross Associates the business? Were the reigns of the company transferred to one of his trusted partners, which there were several over the years? Was it sold off by his daughter, Lilian or did it just become defunct once the matriarch was no longer present to oversee it?


Did any of Ross' right hand-men, i.e. J.B. McGovern, Walter Hatch, Eric Nelson, etc. go on to do any course design work outside of their time with Donald J. Ross Associates? It would seem given the talent of some of these individuals that one of them would have gone on to create a name for themselves separate from their time at Ross. I am curious to know what became of Ross' once thriving architecture business as he began slowing down and was developing/re-designing fewer and fewer golf courses annually and what became of some of his esteemed assistants.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Orrin Smith did a number of coures on his own.I believe that Hatch got out of the business in the early '30s and McGovern's only solo efforts were a new course for Overbrook GC, plus remodels at LLarnech and Gulph Mills. He died in 1951. I'm guessing the folks who know Ross would have a lot more to offer you than that.       

[Mike_Young]

The Maples family did well.  Ellis did more than a few very good courses and the Danny afterwards...

[Sean_A]

The Maples family did well.  Ellis did more than a few very good courses and the Danny afterwards...

Mike

Did Ellis actually design under Ross or was he more on the construction side of things?  I recall trying to find this out previously and being hit head on with the vague "protege". 

Ciao

[Mike_Young]

The Maples family did well.  Ellis did more than a few very good courses and the Danny afterwards...

Mike

Did Ellis actually design under Ross or was he more on the construction side of things?  I recall trying to find this out previously and being hit head on with the vague "protege". 

Ciao

OH my....Design?  Construct?  I don't know but it was Frank I believe who was his lead guy.  I would bet if you asked Ross he would keep Frank before any of the inside guys so I would consider him a designer.  Check out the Maples klan sometimes.  Palmer was a supt herein Ga for years and the entire family continued in golf.  So in my mind he was definitely an associate whether you define that as construction or design. 
Cheers

[Greg Holland]

I have heard and read that Frank (who I believe was Ellis’ father) was close with Ross, but mainly as a superintendent.  Ellis worked with Ross and allegedly completed Raleigh CC - Ross’ last design after his death. In the late 40s.  Ellis then designed a number of very good courses.  We have green drawings Ellis did for my club’s Farm course decades ago as well, and his course here felt very similar to several others he designed in NC to me. 

[Kyle Harris]

James Harrison started the firm Harrison/Garbin with Ferdinand Garbin.

Courses ranged from "Meh" to "Pretty Good."

Penn State's original Blue Course probably the best of the lot.

[MCirba]

James Harrison started the firm Harrison/Garbin with Ferdinand Garbin.

Courses ranged from "Meh" to "Pretty Good."

Penn State's original Blue Course probably the best of the lot.

I've played a number of Harrison (w/Garbin) courses in PA and most are quite solid.   For a sampling of others besides Penn State Blue try;

Sportsmans GC in Harrisburg
Hidden Valley GC in Pine Grove
Glen Oak CC in Waverly (really a little gem)
Scranton Municipal in Mt. Cobb

[Ryan Farrow]

James Harrison started the firm Harrison/Garbin with Ferdinand Garbin.

Courses ranged from "Meh" to "Pretty Good."

Penn State's original Blue Course probably the best of the lot.

I've played a number of Harrison (w/Garbin) courses in PA and most are quite solid.   For a sampling of others besides Penn State Blue try;

Sportsmans GC in Harrisburg
Hidden Valley GC in Pine Grove
Glen Oak CC in Waverly (really a little gem)
Scranton Municipal in Mt. Cobb

I played about 4 of them in the Pittsburgh area and found all to be below average. The terrain in Pittsburgh compared to the Philly area may have something to do with it, but I found the greens to be plain and many greensite were located in awkward areas that created unnecessarily blind tee shots in what seemed like a quest for additional length.

[MCirba]

Hi Ryan,

While I haven't played anything of theirs as far west as PIttsburgh, I'd be curious to know the vintage of those courses?   I suspect that as Harrison grew older his son-in-law took on more of a lead role.   Most of the courses I mentioned were designed in the 50s or early 60s.    As you mentioned, terrain may also be a factor as most of the courses I mentioned are on gently rolling terrain for the most part.

I'm not saying any of them are great courses, but of those I mentioned I'd probably give Glen Oak and Sportsmans a Doak Scale 4 and the others a 3.

[Kyle Harris]

Among my more amusing Golf Architect interaction stories is the time I emailed Ferd Garbin about the Blue Course and received a diatribe about Penn State refusing to hire him back for the early 1990's renovations overseen by Ault/Clark/Schlegel.

I wish I kept the email!

[Ryan Farrow]

Hi Ryan,

While I haven't played anything of theirs as far west as PIttsburgh, I'd be curious to know the vintage of those courses?   I suspect that as Harrison grew older his son-in-law took on more of a lead role.   Most of the courses I mentioned were designed in the 50s or early 60s.    As you mentioned, terrain may also be a factor as most of the courses I mentioned are on gently rolling terrain for the most part.

I'm not saying any of them are great courses, but of those I mentioned I'd probably give Glen Oak and Sportsmans a Doak Scale 4 and the others a 3.

Here are the dates:


'60 - Sewickley Heights
'64 - Chestnut Ridge
'66 - Lenape Heights
'68 - Rolling Hills CC
'70 - Meadowink

[MCirba]

Thanks Ryan. 


I've heard Sewickley is decent but not much of the others.


Would that be mistaken? 

[Ronald Montesano]

Is George Langlands considered to be among the "et al." of Donald J. Ross, Jr.?


http://www.transitvalley.com/history/

The reason I ask is, this course was built in 1921, at a time when it should have been much better than it is. It is wedged into a very small piece of property, despite the fact that it was all farmland and the original gangstas should have been able to buy all the land they needed way back then.


To make matters worse, it is a club that is in love with its trees, so the playing alleys are quite narrow (when I saw Forest Hill Field Club this year, it reminded me in no small way of TVCC) and seriously impact the sense of the routing as a whole.

[Kyle Harris]

Lenape Heights was pretty awkward. Leaning toward the bad end of the quirk spectrum.

[Ryan Farrow]

Kyle, after the 1st I thought Lenape could be a decent course but it fell out of favor fast, I was ready to head home after 9. There was a par 3 on the back that was quite nice. Shorten the course by 500 yards or so yards and  they will have a much better course. Fighting the land too much there.




Mike,  I had heard good things about Sewickley prior to playing as well but I don't see any reason to visit. I did not find anything of significance there.

[Derek_Duncan]

The Hughes clan. Henry Hughes Sr. built courses for Ross in the East (not sure which ones), and his sons later spread out into the West with two opening practices in So. California. Henry Jr. went to Denver and designed a number of courses up and down the Front Range that I grew up playing in high school tournaments.

[Doug Wright]

There is a Harrison/Garbin course in a remote area of NW PA, Blueberry Hill, which I consider a hidden gem. I thought they did a nice job using the terrain, which has some slope and hills to it and some good greensites. 

Regarding Henry Hughes, he was very active in the Colorado area as Derek says. Below is information from the Colorado Golf Hall of Fame website. The Broadmoor (1918) and Wellshire GC (1926) mentioned were both Ross designs (The Broadmoor opened in 2018--if accurate, Hughes would have been working on The Broadmoor at ages 8-10!). Of his courses I've played, such as Aurora Hills, Riverdale Knolls, Meadow Hills, the original JF Kennedy municipal in Denver and Valley Hi in Colorado Springs, the word "nondescript" seems appropriate. Columbine CC is a pretty good course, but I don't know how much of what remains is from the original Hughes work. 

"Henry Hughes was born in 1908 in Chillicothe, Missouri. Hughes' family moved to Denver in 1913 and he graduated from South High School in 1927. In his youth Henry worked for his father, building the original 18 holes at the Broadmoor as well as Cherry Hills Country Club and Wellshire Golf Course. In 1934 Hughes became the superintendent at Cherry Hills and was one of the three original organizers of the Rocky Mountain Green's Keepers Association (now known as the Rocky Mountain Golf Course Superintendents Association). Hughes remained at Cherry Hills until 1947.

 Following his tenure at Cherry Hills he embarked on a career as a golf course architect. Hughes designed and supervised the construction of over 40 golf courses from 1949 to 1970. Included in his resume are Columbine Country Club, Meadow Hills Golf Course, Fort Collins Country Club, Northeastern 18, Old Baldy Golf Club in Wyoming, and many other well-known golf courses in Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, Nebraska and Texas. Hughes played an important role in almost every golf course built in the metro area during his career and is considered to be a pioneer in golf course design and construction."

[Derek_Duncan]

Good addition to the Hughes in Colorado story, Doug. Yes, nondescript would be an appropriate term for most of Henry Hughes's work in Colorado, and it unfortunately kind of set the tone for the whole region in the following decades (Frank Hummel, anyone?).


But that's the environment I grew up in, and those all were just normal golf courses for me. It probably explains a lot about my proclivities that I came from a place with almost zero courses of architectural interest or importance.


Although we did always think Wellshire was different and neat, and couldn't really say why at the time. We also thought the same about Willis Case, but I have no idea the background on that one.

[Tim Martin]

Orrin Smith did a number of coures on his own.I believe that Hatch got out of the business in the early '30s and McGovern's only solo efforts were a new course for Overbrook GC, plus remodels at LLarnech and Gulph Mills. He died in 1951. I'm guessing the folks who know Ross would have a lot more to offer you than that.       

Jim-Smith's nine holer in Middlebury, CT, Highfield Club, is a stand out with different tees for the back nine. A really fun collection of holes on a pretty big footprint in the middle of nowhere. Westover Golf Club in Ludlow Massachusetts is another Smith course that has stood the test of time. Originally built and owned by the USAF the town of Ludlow continues to deliver a great product on a spartan budget. Smith learned well from Ross how to use the natural features of the land and pick interesting green sites.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tim,


He definitely used the existing terrain/features well at CC of Torrington( I believe it's considered to be one of his finest works). Same thing down at Woodbridge CC, whose closing is a real loss. There are (and were)  some excellent sites chosen for the greens at both of them. 


He got around, building courses in Ct, Ma, RI,Me, NY, NJ, Pa, MO, and remodels in most of those states plus, Ks, Ne, NH, and OH.   

[Adam Clayman]

Good addition to the Hughes in Colorado story, Doug. Yes, nondescript would be an appropriate term for most of Henry Hughes's work in Colorado, and it unfortunately kind of set the tone for the whole region in the following decades (Frank Hummel, anyone?).


But that's the environment I grew up in, and those all were just normal golf courses for me. It probably explains a lot about my proclivities that I came from a place with almost zero courses of architectural interest or importance.


Although we did always think Wellshire was different and neat, and couldn't really say why at the time. We also thought the same about Willis Case, but I have no idea the background on that one.

Derek, Did you interject Hummel because he was a regional archie? Or was he by chance, a Ross disciple?


I've seen several of his works. It's hard to tell, but, I suspect every single one of them is better than what is currently presented. If I had to generalize, I'd say he had a real routing strength. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Blueberry Hill...played it once. Nice corridors. Don't recall the greens being super special. Has trees that should come down.


Meadowink...We played it once, in the Midwest Prep Classic, around 2008, I believe. Had some length, interesting corridors, no idea of tree management, emphasis on lush and green.


Chestnut Ridge...I like the original course better than the recent Tom's Run Ault course that wraps around its outsides. Chestnut Ridge is no more than 25 minutes from Meadowink. Decent golf along that stretch of route 22.


The hidden gem in the Indiana/Blairsville area is the VFW course in Indiana.