Is Chechessee what Dormie Club could've been?

[Philip Hensley]

Efficient routing, easily walkable, simple yet nice clubhouse/facilities.


The variety of greens at Dormie Club compare favorably to Chechesee.


The walk at Dormie, while doable, is a slog. The course takes up a large amount of acreage on the property. It takes you off the course on many holes. The routing is disjointed at times.


Chechessee makes me think there was a missed opportunity at Dormie Club.

[Ryan Farrow]

Do you think it is fair to compare a flat property like Chechessee to one that has severe elevation change like Dormie? I'm not sure what environmental restrictions there were at either club but that also plays a large part in the routing process, typically not a positive one.

[Brian Ross]

I'm not sure what environmental restrictions there were at either club but that also plays a large part in the routing process, typically not a positive one.

I tend to agree with Ryan that this is a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison.


In Richard Mandell's book "The Legendary Evolution of Pinehurst," Bill Coore is quoted as saying of the Dormie Club property, "At the time we routed the golf course, amazingly enough, we didn't have any wetland delineation. If Bob Hansen handed me a topo map with the wetland delineation on it, I probably would've said, 'Bob, you need to talk to someone else.' Then the wetlands delineation came and it was 'there are wetlands all over here.'"

[Sean_A]

Sure...there are wetlands, but there are also ways to largely mitigate wetlands as a walking issue...Dormie could do far better and it would go a long way to making the experience of a round more enjoyable. 

Ciao

[Philip Hensley]

Do you think it is fair to compare a flat property like Chechessee to one that has severe elevation change like Dormie? I'm not sure what environmental restrictions there were at either club but that also plays a large part in the routing process, typically not a positive one.

I think it’s a fair comparison because even if the sites were similar one would not want C&C to simply replicate the same holes at Dormie.


Efficient, tight routings can be made on flat land and on land that has elevation changes.


The main comparison is two clubs with similar business models, and we can compare them because they had the same architects.


You may be correct regarding the environmental reasons.

[Michael George]

I like Dormie better than Chechessee Creek.  In fact, I think Dormie is one of C & C's best and most underrated courses. 

I think many of its criticisms were due to the dispute between the first owner and C & C, which made me not like the owner, but not disparage the golf course.

I found Dormie very walkable.  In fact, any walk through the pines in the sandhills of North Carolina is one of the most relaxing walks in golf.  Sure there is some elevation change, but nothing drastic and such elevation change is brilliantly incorporated into making great golf holes.  I count 2-4 as a better stretch than anything at Chechessee Creek and 15 is the best hole on either course and one of the great holes that C &C has ever built.

I am excited to see what the new ownership will do with Dormie to enhance the experience.  But count me as one that loved the original too.

[Keith Phillips]

I agree with Michael.  As a pure golf experience I prefer Dormie, in part due to the more varied terrain and in part because of the absence of love bugs!  As a 'club' it's hard to top Chechessee with its perfect clubhouse and lodging - they really did it right! 

[ward peyronnin]

I opened the thread anticipating an examination of the relative overall golf experience. I have not found the relaxed yet classy surroundings, the staff,s attention to the player. the seamless integration of facilities and just the overall vibe at Chechessee to be often times exceeded.

Many laud the course but I am among the minority who have a hard time appreciating the repetative green complexes, holes, and topography. For me the course doesn't approach the interest the variety  of Dormie holds. Should Dormie become what CC is? Big yes if they get an owner who is willing do things such as rip up and regrass all the golf course and launch a golf experience such as CC has. But these golf courses are different as night and day and revert to what one prefers or accepts.

[Tommy Williamsen]

I like DC much more for its varied terrain and interesting greens. I found the greens at CC to lack slope and undulation. No matter how long the putt I had was the caddie never said more than three balls out. I am very interested to see what the new owner will do at Dormie.

[Sean_A]

What is wrong with Dormie's grass?  In truth, there is nothing wrong with the course that bridges and walkways can't fix.  Maybe over time a few niggling things here and there can be addressed, but that would be hyper critical changes.  So far as the house, same basic no nonsense style, but a bit bigger.  I find Dormie a very relaxing and enjoyable experience (probably because it is mostly empty  ) except for the walk.


Ciao

[Ronald Montesano]

Why would you want another CC? DC is marvelous in my mind.


I don't understand how the course can take you off the course, which is a point made in the opening salvo of this thread.


Dormie is a stunning, beguiling, seductive piece of architecture, from every tee, along each fairway, upon all greens. I've played it in the snow and in the green, and I would never tire of playing it. I would walk it my entire life. If one can't handle a big of a walk between green and tee, perhaps one should assess overall health and fitness. Golf is a game of walking.

[Jay Mickle]

I really don’t see the comparison between the rolling even somewhat trappy land of Dormie to the Lowcountry that is to Chechessee. I far prefer Dormie with its incredible variety of greens and undulating fairways which requires one play balls uphill, down hill, above your feet, below your feet using every club.
Chechessee has a more finished feel but it must be noted that it has seen a significant makeover since its inception. Dormie is about to undergo one according to the new owners. I would surely expect that many of the issues noted in GCA will be addressed in the upcoming year. I look forward to seeing the new Dormie but will certainly miss its ease of access.

[Matt MacIver]

I’m in agreement with many others here - I think Dormie is in a different league than CC.  The ground has a lot to do with it.  I’m sure C&C did a great job simply laying out CC on “the lay of the land” with simple push-ups greens...but that doesn’t mean I have to love it.  I’d happily play CC every day and it is an easier walk than Dormie both for the green-to-tee commutes but also the elevation, but given the 10- round maxim I’d choose Dormie 7-3, or better. 

[Wade Whitehead]

In truth, there is nothing wrong with the course that bridges and walkways can't fix.

I'm hearing that C&C will be working this year to complete their final phase at Dormie, which was originally planned but never completed.

WW

[Philip Hensley]

Why would you want another CC? DC is marvelous in my mind.

I don't understand how the course can take you off the course, which is a point made in the opening salvo of this thread.

I don't want a replica of CC transferred to the land of DC. As Jay Mickle said, they are varied topos and I generally prefer that.




I don't want to turn this into another Matt Ward debate over it's walkability. I have walked it many times (more than I have cartballed). Yes, it is walkable.


Many holes do not have direct walks from the tee to the fairway, meaning you have to disappear into the woods on the cartpath to walk to the fairway.


Holes 2, 3(somewhat), 5, 7, 8, 15, and 17 are require leaving the hole to the side and walk along the cartpath. Others may enjoy that. I think it is a detriment.

[Philip Hensley]

In truth, there is nothing wrong with the course that bridges and walkways can't fix.

I'm hearing that C&C will be working this year to complete their final phase at Dormie, which was originally planned but never completed.

WW

This would be a welcomed upgrade, and Sean is correct that the walkability issues could be fixed.

[Jeff Loh]

Played Dormie last Friday. Chap in the pro shop said Bill Coore had visited. Said he might "rework a couple of bunkers and tees" but that was it. No major changes that he knew of.
Also said that all wetlands are marked by GPS! so that if you start to "shave" a little here and there the alarm bells go off!
That being said...besides the walkability factor what changes would YOU make to Dormie?
Sorry Phil...don't mean to hijack your thread...

[Michael Whitaker]

The Dormie Club course is by far a more varied and interesting course than Chechessee Creek. But, that is almost exclusively a function of the property. CC is on nearly dead flat Low Country land and for that type of course it is about the best I've ever seen.

What Chechessee has working for it is the CLUB. It is one of the best clubs and has one of the best club vibes I've ever experienced. The new owner has turned it into one of the finest destination clubs in the South.

If the new Dormie owners can come close to creating a club like Chechessee they will be well rewarded, I think.

[Craig Disher]

I wonder how many who have complained about the walk at DC played the course in 2008-9 when the paths and shortcuts were available and actively maintained. Given the size of the property, the walk seemed surprisingly intimate. Their loss was due only to the expense of maintaining them and the decline of caddie rounds. Currently, I would not consider DC to be a pleasant walk but rebuilding the 2009 paths is not a significant expense and from what I can tell, will happen.

[ward peyronnin]

Sean

I meant that CC owner was so committed to his course that he paid to redo all the grass. Not a comment on Dormie's turf

[Jay Mickle]

Sean

I meant that CC owner was so committed to his course that he paid to redo all the grass. Not a comment on Dormie's turf

Surely not Ward, Dormie has some of the best turf in the Sandhills especially at this time of year when the Bermuda is dormant and it is running firn and fast. A true delight to play on.

[Jack Carney]

Well this is a first relative to my limited time on this site. I have not played DC but to excuse what apparently is at least a bit untidy routing and/ or lack of maintained walking paths to question ones fitness is at least a bit counter to the unspoken values normally supported herein.

[Mike Sweeney]

If the new Dormie owners can come close to creating a club like Chechessee they will be well rewarded, I think.

"aimed at executives and corporate events."



https://bluetoad.com/publication/?i=465006&ver=html5&p=23


Sounds like a different model at DC. Hopefully they have a reciprocal with Goat Hill !!

[Tommy Williamsen]

I think the model is a bit different, but if it is run like Ballyhack the club will have a small local membership. We still get less than 10,000 rounds a year, so the course is never crowded. The Peeds have Ballyhack only better. They playing surfaces are better than they ever have been and the new cottages blend in with the others. If you have been to either Arbor Links or Sutton Bay, the cottages are the same design. The club has a feel of a small membership club and not like a resort or even a corporate retreat.

[Jerry Kluger]

I really like Dormie but I still don't understand how it is going to work as a private club.  If they build cabins, etc. similar to Ballyneal, the problem that arises is staffing. You build accommodations for 24 which requires food and beverage staff.  In order to give good food and service you need full time employees but you won't have enough golfers to support full-time quality cooks, wait staff, etc. 


The other concern  I have is how do you compete with other private clubs in the area plus semi privates like Pine Needles/Mid Pines. Non-resident memberships are available at CCNC and Forest Oaks which both have 2 courses. You of course have all the courses at Pinehurst. I just came back from Arizona and played with some guys who are regulars at Talking Stick.  They said they paid $99 for an annual membership which gave them one free round in the off season and then a reduced rate of $79 the rest of the year.  Something like this is what I see a possibly working where guys like myself would come down on a somewhat regular basis and keep the club active.  (You might even require a spending minimum which would include green fees.)Then non-resident/visitors would pay a higher fee.  Tee Times would be blocked off each day for the visitors at the higher rate.