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Ben Stephens

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Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2019, 07:19:30 AM »
Not yet NLE, but this may be the last full year to play to the lovely 14th green at Liphook. Work on the new routing is due to start this year and the 14th hole disappears as a result.


Who’s changing Liphook?  >:(

Planning Portal document list

https://planningpublicaccess.southdowns.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=P8S22CTUKO100


Proposed new layout - is in Full site Landscape Plan
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 12:12:37 PM by Ben Stephens »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2019, 08:48:26 AM »
Robin

I couldn't get on to the first link with the masterplan but was able to get into the planning portal. I've never been to Liphook so don't know the course or contours etc but it does seem that they are making more extensive changes than just to accommodate the underpass. Fair comment ?

As a matter of interest, what firm of architects are involved ? All I can see is documents lodged by the planning consultant.

Niall

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2019, 12:13:51 PM »
Robin

I couldn't get on to the first link with the masterplan but was able to get into the planning portal. I've never been to Liphook so don't know the course or contours etc but it does seem that they are making more extensive changes than just to accommodate the underpass. Fair comment ?

As a matter of interest, what firm of architects are involved ? All I can see is documents lodged by the planning consultant.

Niall


Mackenzie and Ebert are doing the work - their names have been excluded from the planning application. It is quite a major change to the course in this particular section

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2019, 04:20:24 AM »
Following Ben's link to the Site Landscape Plan will show you exactly what is being proposed.


In short, there are two brand new holes (8 and 9), one majorly realigned (15th) and two holes dropped - the 14th, which is removed entirely and holes 10 and 11, which are combined into one, with a new tee on top of the hill to eradicate the blind tee shot.


The order of the layout is changed to create a road crossing behind the current 9th (future 14th). I think it is a very creative piece of design work, though the level of success will lie with the result of the two new holes.


Sorry for taking this off topic. This was probably worth its own thread.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2019, 07:22:32 AM »
Robin

It was the landscape plan I was referring to when I commented on the rerouting and design. It certainly looks like they are making big changes albeit to a limited area of the course. Am I right in saying Tom MacKenzie is a member there ? Don't know why I think that.

I've got a trip down that way in July and was thinking of giving the course a visit although not if four holes are out of play. Presumably they will be looking to doing the work next winter (2019/2020) ?

Niall

Robin_Hiseman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2019, 08:05:55 AM »
Niall


The existing course will still be in play this summer, so definitely worth a look.  Could be persuaded to join you if appropriate.


Tom M is not a member there.
2024: RSt.D; Mill Ride; Milford; Notts; JCB, Jameson Links, Druids Glen, Royal Dublin, Portmarnock, Old Head, Addington, Parkstone, Denham, Thurlestone, Dartmouth, Rustic Canyon, LACC (N), MPCC (Shore), Cal Club, San Fran, Epsom, Casa Serena, Hayling, Co. Sligo, Strandhill, Carne, Cleeve Hill

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2019, 03:00:41 PM »
It's not famous but the second green at Simsbury Farms GC in Connecticut, my old high school home course, was blown up a couple years ago and replaced with a ham-fisted abomination that is nothing like the other 17 greens on the course.


2 is a down-then-up par 4 where as soon as we'd get in the bus to go to practice, we'd be thinking about it. It was two-tiered, with both levels sloping pretty hard back-to-front. I once watched a teammate seven-putt it in practice. Another teammate once three-putted and after holing out, tossed his golf ball baseball-style and absolutely smashed it with his putter about 150 yards over the trees nearby. Mostly it was a great example of a hole where you'd receive a VERY stiff penalty for leaving yourself in the wrong spot in regulation. The new green is still 2-tiered, but it's much flatter and doesn't tie in at all to the uphill slope into which Geoffrey Cornish routed the hole. Plus the grass is a noticeably different shade, so it looks very bad. A real shame on an otherwise solid local course.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2019, 09:35:17 AM »

This green has been completely changed and no longer exists in my mind. Although maybe a couple of folks on this forum can recognize the setting.



Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2019, 10:43:44 AM »
Robin

I couldn't get on to the first link with the masterplan but was able to get into the planning portal. I've never been to Liphook so don't know the course or contours etc but it does seem that they are making more extensive changes than just to accommodate the underpass. Fair comment ?

As a matter of interest, what firm of architects are involved ? All I can see is documents lodged by the planning consultant.

Niall


Niall,


There is more info on the changes that I posted towards the bottom of this thread to avoid taking this one too far off topic...;


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52532.msg1573766.html#msg1573766


The extent of the changes are due to the road crossing changing location so the course has to be re-routed to accommodate. Robin's comment are spot on that despite the loss of the 14th green (probably my favourite on the course) they appear to be positive changes, though the success will depend on the two new holes and in particular their greens fitting in with the rest of the course.

The latest I have been told was the changes will start this summer at some point. In theory the course could and will be remain completely open during at least the early stages if not the entirety of the work other than a few days here and there as most of the new work is in out of play areas at present.

To get back onto the thread topic the 10th green will also be lost, not a particularly memorable one but abit of a grower.....and there is also now talk of extending the 12th at Liphook into a par 5. It will become the 11th and would make the new walk to the 12th (current 7th) tee easier and safer. This obviously means the current 12th green will be NLE. Again at first glance maybe not a great loss but I've actually grown to really like this green. It's subtly interesting without being flash and in your face and there are some really cool pins up on the back shelf. I'll try to take some photos next time I'm there.
An interesting note is that the ground which the new green would occupy was once a par 3 hole that was taken out of play when the clubhouse moved to the current location and the 1st hole was built by Morrison.....so there's another NLE green, but unfortunately you can't really see any signs of it anymore.




« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 10:54:48 AM by Tom Kelly »

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #34 on: March 26, 2019, 10:56:34 AM »
A few photos of the 14th green at Liphook;[/size]Looking down on 14th from back of 8th green;

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2019, 02:56:49 PM »
Tom

Thanks for that, those greens look fantastic. Any idea whether they are Croome greens or Simpson greens ?

Niall

Tom Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2019, 06:34:37 AM »
Tom

Thanks for that, those greens look fantastic. Any idea whether they are Croome greens or Simpson greens ?

Niall


I believe they are all Croome greens except for 1 & 18. I'm told Morrison built the 1st and I believe 18 was also changed at the same time though not 100% certain, 18 definitely feels different from the rest of the course with the huge false front.


My understanding is that Simpson made many small changes to the course whilst he was greens chairman, it sounds like a number of them without permission from the club for instance 'Simpson's Folly' the mound front left of 9 which legend goes was built overnight so nobody could complain.... Though I can't say for certain what other changes he made as I don't know the history well enough, but it is very possible he tweaked some of the greens.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2019, 07:09:36 AM »

This green has been completely changed and no longer exists in my mind. Although maybe a couple of folks on this forum can recognize the setting.





I’m keen to know the answer MC so to move things along how about a head above the parapet guess at the 10th Red at the Jockey Club?
Atb

Jim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #38 on: March 27, 2019, 02:16:45 PM »
The original 10th at ANGC (current routing) looked cool, or at least the green setting did.  Same with #7 there, and also #9.   

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2019, 04:57:45 PM »

This green has been completely changed and no longer exists in my mind. Although maybe a couple of folks on this forum can recognize the setting.





I’m keen to know the answer MC so to move things along how about a head above the parapet guess at the 10th Red at the Jockey Club?
Atb




Thomas,


This is 5 miles away. The former 17th, now 16th green at San Andres Golf Club.

There is a link, though. I believe the green is not an original 1907 Mungo Park green, but was actually designed and built by Luther Koontz in the 30s. Just a few years earlier, Koontz built the 10th at the Jockey Club for Mackenzie, who was his sole influence in design.

For a completely flat piece of land, I think the result is spectacular.


M

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2019, 05:18:51 PM »
MC,
So near and yet so far! And I was hoping for a River-Boca match ticket as a winning prize! :):)
As to work on extremely flat land, Mike DeVries kindly sent me an overhead of the Jockey Club (which I then posted on a J-C thread) highlighting the various drainage channels that MacKenzie/Koontz created with the spoil apparently being used to create greens and other features. Fascinating.
Was the same technique used at San Andres?
Atb

MClutterbuck

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Great greens that no longer exist
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2019, 06:25:52 PM »
Thomas,


The last River - Boca match (3-1) was held in Madrid, so cant help you much in that department.

Since the 70s San Andres has been the best draining club in Buenos Aires (prior to new sand-capped courses). It had often been the only open club after storms. There is not much available about the construction process. It seems Mungo Park built very large shallow greens in 1907. Not much contour to them.


A change in land zoning had 11 new holes built in the 30s. I believe this is when some drainage channels were built and hollows created between some fairways. I believe that is the time some of these elevated greens were built. Holes 2-5, 7, 10, 11 and 16 are the most notable elevated greens.

During the 60s a large lake was covered and the routing changed again on holes 9, 10, 18. A large drainage ditch/creek crossing these holes remains in its place. Only in the 90s french drains were added on lower spots in some fairways. You can see the ditch in the aerial here:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43053.msg1501251.html#msg1501251