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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« on: January 15, 2018, 09:05:04 AM »
Having recently played these two courses back to back I am left with the impression they are similar and equal in many ways. Where did I go wrong?

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2018, 09:55:49 AM »
I can only assume you are still in England as that's nearer to 5:00
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2018, 10:38:57 AM »
I can only assume you are still in England as that's nearer to 5:00


For the uninitiated the above is a clever take on the ole drunk joke. That being said I did love the bar at Streamsong Black with the patio near the first tee. Great spot for a morning cigar and a bloody mary. The after round gin and tonics with crumpets are world class at Walton Heath. In a head to head I would call the ambience a draw registering a rim job on my pour-o-meter.


Now on to the courses...

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2018, 10:59:05 AM »
I like both gin and tonic and crumpets, but it's never previously occurred to me to have them together! Could be setting a trend John.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
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Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2018, 11:10:57 AM »
John - can I ask at which course you shot the lower score?


Also, whether at either course you got to use every club in the bag?


I have to just follow along on this thread, but I wanted that context before any talk of the 'experience'...






John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2018, 11:20:41 AM »
John - can I ask at which course you shot the lower score?


Also, whether at either course you got to use every club in the bag?


I have to just follow along on this thread, but I wanted that context before any talk of the 'experience'...


I played much better on the Black. Used every club in the bag at both courses even though I only carried 7 at Walton Heath. All things considered I would consider each course equally difficult.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2018, 11:53:29 AM »
Despite carrying my own bag at Walton and taking a caddie at the Black I would consider each course equally walkable.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2018, 03:33:10 PM »

1. B
2. B
3. W
4. W
5. B
6. B
7. B
8. W
9. B
10. W
11. B
12. W
13. W
14. W
15. W
16. B
17. B
18. B


My Matchplay assessment. Black wins +2!!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2018, 07:25:53 PM »
Jeepers...Black's 8th must be a very ordinary hole if WHO's is better.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2018, 08:18:41 PM »
Jeepers...Black's 8th must be a very ordinary hole if WHO's is better.

Ciao


Sean,


I gave this some serious thought and am afraid that the 9th at Streamsong is so strong that the 8th is nothing more than a preclude.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2018, 01:52:11 AM »
I would have given 5&6 to Walton Heath.  That 5th green is awesome.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2018, 05:13:17 AM »
I would have given 5&6 to Walton Heath.  That 5th green is awesome.

This is so self-serving of you Tom...

Pushing the match to the Bye Hole and all!  ;D
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2018, 07:06:32 AM »
I would have given 5&6 to Walton Heath.  That 5th green is awesome.


I wish I had thought of that as I would have preferred the match to have ended in a draw. I let my love of left to right ball busting uphill par threes get the best of me.


The sixth could have gone either way. Looks like I was cluster picking during this match. I really enjoy a series of great holes together.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2018, 10:04:55 AM »
Well, I guess that settles it - I must return to Streamsong to play the Black if holds its own with Walton Heath Old.  While it might not be the best, I found WHO to be among the top five "ideal" golf course's I've played.  It's "just right" - lacking nothing with nothing superfluous. 

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2018, 10:12:46 AM »
Well, I guess that settles it - I must return to Streamsong to play the Black if holds its own with Walton Heath Old.  While it might not be the best, I found WHO to be among the top five "ideal" golf course's I've played.  It's "just right" - lacking nothing with nothing superfluous. 

Mike


Streamsong Black is the best course suited for the low running ground fade that I have ever played. Get down there before they make any changes.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2018, 11:05:42 AM »

Streamsong Black is the best course suited for the low running ground fade that I have ever played. Get down there before they make any changes.


My lefty low running ground draw worked similarly.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

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David McIntosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2018, 02:14:21 PM »
I would have given 5&6 to Walton Heath.  That 5th green is awesome.

This is so self-serving of you Tom...

Pushing the match to the Bye Hole and all!  ;D

Tom,

I had wondered whether it was you or C&C that designed the Bye Hole - I presume from Kyle’s comment that it’s yours?

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2018, 02:26:58 PM »
I must live in a different universe.  The two courses are apples and oranges.  The Black is large, bold, in-your-face.  WH-O is traditional, subtle, sans much drama.  S-Black could very well become a world top-something course.  WH-O is a nice English course, but one a bit behind numerous peers.   

Jay Mickle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2018, 03:13:38 PM »
To Walton Heath I took only hickory clubs and loved the firm fast fairways and the running approach shots. To SSB I took modern clubs but also my 23 degree hickory approach cleek and had a great deal of fun playing ground shots. There the comparison ends. WH is the winner by virtue of being in Surrey.
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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2018, 04:13:59 PM »
I find the courses to be very similar in the lack of elevation change. The defense being at the greens and beautiful eye candy bunkering. If you look at older pictures of Walton Heath and eliminate the drone views of SSB I think you would see the similarities.


What exactly is "in your face" about SSB outside the requirement of a ground game and some green contouring? I doubt that I have ever played two courses that were more strategically self-evident in the same manner.


For those who like to label architectural styles in which catagorie does each course fit?

James Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2018, 05:50:18 PM »
Black is twice as wide as WHO in most places.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 05:54:28 PM »
John - the experience of actually playing an instant-top-100 like SSB seems to have changed your thinking quite dramatically from what it was a year or so ago.
Also, I think you may have answered your own question re: gca 'categories', i.e. "Strategically Self-Evident" seems to me a terrific term to describe many of the highly acclaimed modern courses.
The interesting question is whether, as you seem to imply, this new term also describes a classic like WH-O just as well.

Michael Felton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 05:56:34 PM »
I must live in a different universe.  The two courses are apples and oranges.  The Black is large, bold, in-your-face.  WH-O is traditional, subtle, sans much drama.  S-Black could very well become a world top-something course.  WH-O is a nice English course, but one a bit behind numerous peers.   


Walton Heath is a world top-something course:


http://www.golf.com/courses-and-travel/photo/2017/08/28/top-100-golf-courses-world-2017
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/worlds-100-greatest-golf-courses
https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-course/walton-heath-old

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2018, 08:27:32 PM »
Michael Felton- certainly you know by now that the informed opinion of this site holds formalized ratings in low regard.  I like WH-O and would play it again without much prompting, but it would not make my Top 100 list.  Golf is a big world- to each his own.

JK- I perceived the two courses very differently.  S-Black looked to me like strips and pieces of turf enveloped by a sea of  sand bunkers, waste areas and native scrub.  The very rustic site may not have much elevation in terms of the difference between the lowest and highest points, but it felt like I was often ascending and descending (I don't know how much was created by Hanse & Co. vs. Mosaic mining, though I understand that they had to haul quite a bit of sandy material in).  My impression was that the ground had a lot of movement to it and the stances and lies were infrequently flat.

The greens at B-S are like nothing I have ever seen in terms of size, contouring and internal movement (Champions in Houston is known for its large greens, but they are smaller with much tamer contours).  If you found the strategy to be self-evident at S-B, either you are extremely perceptive or have a different understanding of what strategy.  It would take me many rounds to figure out what sections of the greens to avoid at all costs (I was overwhelmed by the greens at all three Streamsong courses).  S-B has a links look and feel, and encourages the ground game.

Perhaps WH-O, being more traditional and familiar in style to me, just seemed to be straightforward.  The scale is smaller and proportional to the site.  My recollection is that it was also flatter, or at least that it was an easy walk.  I don't remember pondering the lines of play excessively and the greens didn't fool me much.  Like I noted earlier, I was even par or +1 over the last 14 holes and don't remember hitting the ball all that well (was pulling my tee shots).  WH-O is a parkland course with some heather, but perhaps not as much as some in the area.  A stark contrast to S-B, in my estimation.

     

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Walton Heath vs Streamsong Black
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 09:06:52 PM »
WH-O is a nice English course, but one a bit behind numerous peers.   

For shame...WHO makes my GB&I top 25....and I wouldn't say I am a huge fan.  WHO isn't a thrill a minute ride, but excellent just the same.  Its tough as ole boots yet retains a charm which is hard to deny.  Perhaps WHO stands up better as an experience because of its history and connection to the great James Braid. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

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