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Ian Galbraith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #150 on: August 18, 2018, 10:45:52 AM »
Mark is clearly too modest to announce his victory so I'll start us off. After an aborted attempt to play on the West Links about a month ago (dodgy knee) we managed to get together to play at Ladybank on Thursday in the twilight zone. It's a course neither of us had played before but I've been keen to find an excuse to visit for a while. We played from the yellow which in the wind was a good decision, at 6300yrds, it was  challenge enough.



The match was tight all the way round with few halved holes. If you managed to stay out of the trees off the tees you usually had a good shout at winning the hole. Both Mark and I explored the undergrowth on various parts of the course and made some good recovery shots at times too. The course has a lot of beautiful Scots pines all over it which is nice as they are one of my favourite trees - just not so nice from underneath though. Although the undergrowth is by and large cropped so you can find and play your ball  pretty readily.


All square after 16, we were staring extra holes in the face until I caught a flyer over the green on 17 and failed to recover. Mark made a tidy par on the last to seal a well deserved win.


I enjoyed the course, there are some interesting greens with humps and bumps guarding the entrances and some doglegs which make you think and be accurate. Playing up and down tree lined channels is a little repetitious in places but that's being picky. Sadly no red squirrels were sighted on the round.


So a very enjoyable game in excellent company -  good luck to Mark in his next round against Tim Gallant.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #151 on: August 18, 2018, 12:27:22 PM »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #152 on: August 19, 2018, 06:52:51 AM »
Duncan Cheslett and I are likely to play Beau Desert on Mon 27th August (Bank Holiday) after 3pm.

Let us know if anyone else is interested in joining us. The green fee on offer is a good one.




Ladybank - god I played it over 20 years ago whilst at Dundee University. I remember it being a solid inland course and they were changing 2 par threes at that time. I am sure it has changed a bit since then with trees growing much higher. 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 06:54:40 AM by Ben Stephens »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #153 on: August 19, 2018, 07:28:39 AM »
I also recall playing Ladybank 20 odd years ago and my abiding memory is of a nice track spoiled by forests of Christmas trees planted down the sides of every fairway. They weren't the gnarly Scots pine that Ian refers to that are full of character but the classic Christmas tree shaped pines with very little room beneath the branches.

To this day if you asked me what 5 Scottish courses I've played that would benefit hugely by liberal use of the chainsaw that would be one of them.

Niall 

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #154 on: August 19, 2018, 07:37:49 AM »
Tim let’s sort a venue for our match, well off the beaten path would be Kingarrock!
Cave Nil Vino

Tim Gallant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #155 on: August 20, 2018, 08:40:03 AM »
Tim let’s sort a venue for our match, well off the beaten path would be Kingarrock!


I would love that! I've never played with hickories, but I am ready to take the plunge. How does the morning of 29 September suit?

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #156 on: August 21, 2018, 11:53:54 AM »
Tim let’s do it, I’ll book as BIGGA bookings need to be direct. Anyone care to join us?
Cave Nil Vino

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #157 on: August 27, 2018, 06:53:30 PM »
Ben Stephens and I did battle this afternoon at Beau Desert after a fascinating visit to the new JCB course nearby.


Ben sprayed umpteen golf balls all over Cannock Chase in his inimitable manner while I managed to nurse the same ball round the 15 holes required to secure a 4 and 3 victory.


A thoroughly enjoyable day enhanced by the company of our good friend Ken Moodie.


Beau Desert2 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr








« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 02:59:26 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #158 on: August 28, 2018, 04:21:14 AM »
Ben Stephens and I did battle this afternoon at Beau Desert after a fascinating visit to the new JCB course nearby.


Ben sprayed umpteen golf balls all over Cannock Chase in his inimitable manner while I managed to nurse the same ball round the 15 holes required to secure a 4 and 3 victory.


A thoroughly enjoyable day enhanced by the company of our good friend Ken Moodie.


Beau Desert2 by Duncan Cheslett, on Flickr


Well played Duncan who was arrow straight as Calvin Peete was and his putter was hot 10-12 ft away from the hole - the 9th was halved by two contrasting birdies!. Ken was a good referee. A great day with fellow Golf Club Atlas members seeing and playing two vastly contrasting great golf courses. A highlight of the day was chatting with DJ Russell at JCB.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #159 on: August 28, 2018, 04:24:50 AM »
Duncan & Ben

I happened to play Beau yesterday in the open comp.  After being away for two years I was struck by how good the course is and how difficult the greens play.  Mind you, the hole locations were a bit on the evil side, I expect because of the comp.  Its a shame there isn't more traction for tree removal and hopefully at some point a rethink of the many dreadful bunkers.  Still, I walked away very impressed.

Well done and good luck in the next round.

Beau Desert link
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #160 on: August 28, 2018, 04:30:10 AM »
Duncan & Ben

I happened to play Beau yesterday in the open comp.  After being away for two years I was struck by how good the course is and how difficult the greens play.  Mind you, the hole locations were a bit on the evil side, I expect because of the comp.  Its a shame there isn't more traction for tree removal and hopefully at some point a rethink of the many dreadful bunkers.  Still, I walked away very impressed.

Well done and good luck in the next round.

Beau Desert link
www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,30965.0.html

Ciao


Sean,


Duncan, Ken and I explored around the clubhouse and found on the club noticeboard tree reduction proposals - up to 75% reduction in certain areas. So it seems that there are future plans to carry this out which is badly needed.


Those conifers at the rear of the 18th green is ghastly!


It has been a while since I last played Beau. The 7th, 8th and 9th hole have had some form of tree removal. Correct me if I am wrong.


12th hole potentially is a great hole. We found old photos showing that there were a lot less trees on the right and the heather was in full bloom making it a cape like hole. It is now a ridiculous hole as the longer hitters have to carry second shots over large trees.


There were some great shaping by Fowler which Ken says is only feasible on sandy subsoil not clay.


Cheers
Ben

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #161 on: August 28, 2018, 04:43:26 AM »
Ben

Lets hope the trees are dealt with.  Perhaps tree clearing on the 7th (totally transformed the hole) convinced members that it is a good idea?

I like the 12th!  Its a harsh hole for sure, but big boys get a huge advantage as they can blow drives over the right trees and be left with short iron approaches.  For many, its a three shot hole because they can't carry the trees further up on the left.  However, if trees down the right were going to get the whack then that sounds a good idea. It would lessen the advantage of big hitters.  Something similar was done at Little Aston's 10th with trees cleared on the left so shorter hitters could have a go with taking on the dogleg.  I suspect with the massively high launch of drivers these days there are many "tree" holes which are now compromised in that the advantage to flat bellies is simply too great.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #162 on: August 28, 2018, 05:15:03 AM »
Its a shame there isn't more traction for tree removal and hopefully at some point a rethink of the many dreadful bunkers. 


A detailed report from arboculturist John Nicholson was on the club noticeboard, advocating mass tree removal. It appears that the club is moving in the right direction.


The bunkering needs a complete overhaul. I suspect that the phone line between Ken Moodie and his good friend and colleague John Nicholson was hot this morning!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 05:17:39 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #163 on: August 28, 2018, 05:29:12 AM »
Its a shame there isn't more traction for tree removal and hopefully at some point a rethink of the many dreadful bunkers. 

A detailed report from arboculturist John Nicholson was on the club noticeboard, advocating mass tree removal. It appears that the club is moving in the right direction.

The bunkering needs a complete overhaul. I suspect that the phone line between Ken Moodie and his good friend and colleague John Nicholson was hot this morning!

Surely the pathetic style of the bunkers can't have gone unnoticed by the membership.  The more pressing issue is so many of the these shallow bowl bunkers aren't even necessary. 

Some of the decent, I suspect, original bunkers such as the trench bunker to the left of 13 fairway are mostly in no man's land rough.  It shows how much that fairway has been narrowed over the years.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #164 on: August 28, 2018, 05:43:21 AM »
Sean,


I listened to much the same for most of the journey back to Stockport last night!

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #165 on: August 28, 2018, 06:35:09 AM »
Clearly the bunkering needs work, but defining an appropriate bunker style for a Fowler course is not straightforward. Of all the Golden Age designers he seems to have been least tied to any kind of signature visual approach. Contrast Walton Heath, where he basically just dug down below grade with the Berkshire, where he built some very large and complex-shaped bunkers. (We can speculate on Simpson's influence on his older partner at the Berkshire, but former club secretary Peter Foord researched the construction of the courses very thoroughly, which was possible as it was a Crown Lands, essentially a government-backed, venture and the paperwork survives, and there is _not a single reference_ to Simpson being on site at all during the build). It would be _highly inappropriate_ just to rebuild BD with en vogue quasi lacy edged bunkers.


Derek Markham's biography of Fowler is due out soon, and we can only hope that will fill in some of the gaps in our understanding of his design thinking. Meanwhile if it were down to me, I'd suggest that the club defers consideration of bunkering for now, concentrating attention on fixing the tree and grassing lines issues, which to be frank are both more important and more pressing. Meanwhile, they need to assemble as much historical material as they can to help them make the most informed decision possible when the time to fix the bunkers comes round.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #166 on: August 28, 2018, 07:02:27 AM »
Its a shame there isn't more traction for tree removal and hopefully at some point a rethink of the many dreadful bunkers. 


A detailed report from arboculturist John Nicholson was on the club noticeboard, advocating mass tree removal. It appears that the club is moving in the right direction.


The bunkering needs a complete overhaul. I suspect that the phone line between Ken Moodie and his good friend and colleague John Nicholson was hot this morning!


Ken would be iterating that John put in the wrong description to the photos for Middlesborough and Chester Le Street courses on the presentation  ;D ;D  - its was rather interesting to see someone say I did that and thats the wrong course name!

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #167 on: August 28, 2018, 07:05:02 AM »
Ben

Lets hope the trees are dealt with.  Perhaps tree clearing on the 7th (totally transformed the hole) convinced members that it is a good idea?

I like the 12th!  Its a harsh hole for sure, but big boys get a huge advantage as they can blow drives over the right trees and be left with short iron approaches.  For many, its a three shot hole because they can't carry the trees further up on the left.  However, if trees down the right were going to get the whack then that sounds a good idea. It would lessen the advantage of big hitters.  Something similar was done at Little Aston's 10th with trees cleared on the left so shorter hitters could have a go with taking on the dogleg.  I suspect with the massively high launch of drivers these days there are many "tree" holes which are now compromised in that the advantage to flat bellies is simply too great.

Ciao


re 12th - on an early plan of the course there were no trees indicated on the right and there were on the left. If the trees were mostly cleared and opened the line to the green would open up for longer and more adventurous drives to the right plus the heather really comes into play more as it is open so there are no trees to avoid. They need to cut a few trees out on the left towards the green.

Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #168 on: August 28, 2018, 07:06:13 AM »
Clearly the bunkering needs work, but defining an appropriate bunker style for a Fowler course is not straightforward. Of all the Golden Age designers he seems to have been least tied to any kind of signature visual approach. Contrast Walton Heath, where he basically just dug down below grade with the Berkshire, where he built some very large and complex-shaped bunkers. (We can speculate on Simpson's influence on his older partner at the Berkshire, but former club secretary Peter Foord researched the construction of the courses very thoroughly, which was possible as it was a Crown Lands, essentially a government-backed, venture and the paperwork survives, and there is _not a single reference_ to Simpson being on site at all during the build). It would be _highly inappropriate_ just to rebuild BD with en vogue quasi lacy edged bunkers.


Derek Markham's biography of Fowler is due out soon, and we can only hope that will fill in some of the gaps in our understanding of his design thinking. Meanwhile if it were down to me, I'd suggest that the club defers consideration of bunkering for now, concentrating attention on fixing the tree and grassing lines issues, which to be frank are both more important and more pressing. Meanwhile, they need to assemble as much historical material as they can to help them make the most informed decision possible when the time to fix the bunkers comes round.


Fowler was a rather tall gentleman I have to add probably the tallest well known GCA

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #169 on: August 28, 2018, 10:13:35 AM »
Final call for Andy Stamm. Can you please get back to me regarding playing our tie.

Thanks

Niall

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #170 on: August 28, 2018, 04:00:37 PM »
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #171 on: August 28, 2018, 04:45:11 PM »
Duncan/Ben
I hope to have the opportunity to play the JCB course soon. What did you think of it?


Ben Stephens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #172 on: August 29, 2018, 06:02:42 AM »
Duncan/Ben
I hope to have the opportunity to play the JCB course soon. What did you think of it?


JCB will be a exclusive golf club only open to members and corporate companies. No visitors will be allowed. It will be only open to top professional and amateur golf events for visitors to see the golf course.








Duncan Cheslett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #173 on: August 29, 2018, 06:06:24 AM »


JCB will be a exclusive golf club only open to members and corporate companies. No visitors will be allowed. It will be only open to top professional and amateur golf events for visitors to see the golf course.


That's what they're saying now, anyway.


James Reader

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: UK Knock-Out 2018
« Reply #174 on: August 29, 2018, 04:18:54 PM »
Duncan/Ben
I hope to have the opportunity to play the JCB course soon. What did you think of it?


JCB will be a exclusive golf club only open to members and corporate companies. No visitors will be allowed. It will be only open to top professional and amateur golf events for visitors to see the golf course.


Understood. I’m still interested in what you thought of it.