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PCCraig

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The homepage of Golf Club Atlas was updated yesterday with a picture of the 13th green at The Minikahda Club in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I tried to include Ran's picture but I wasn't able to link it correctly, regardless here is a picture of the same green from a slightly different angle:





Kyle Franz is currently consulting with the club, and I know he built the bunkers behind the green on the hillside last fall. The bunkers short of the green were built previously during a Ron Prichard renovation.


I love the look of the bunkers behind the green, but do they fit with the fronting bunkers? Does the style of the new bunkers fit on a parkland design, especially one in Minnesota?
H.P.S.

MCirba

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 02:47:11 PM »
I have to say I had the same thought when I saw the page this morning.   

Is there a historical basis for those rear bunkers?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

BHoover

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 02:49:47 PM »
The bunkers fit in just fine, in my opinion.

Eric Smith

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 02:56:00 PM »

Kalen Braley

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2017, 03:03:46 PM »
The back ones look a bit odd to my eye.....the front ones seem to be a better fit.

Laz Versalles

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 03:25:39 PM »

The design of the rear bunkers would do well all across Minikahda. That said, I'm getting a slight fidgety feeling looking at the hole with the two styles contrasting each other.


For those who've yet to visit Minneapolis- there are 5 great courses within about 5 miles of one another- Minikahda, Interlachen, Minneapolis GC, Oak Ridge CC and Golden Valley CC. I have a soft spot for Minikahda and Oak Ridge but they're all great.

Tom_Doak

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 03:39:22 PM »
Is Minikahda a naturally sandy site?  The sand looks a bit too white to be natural.


Is there any history for that sort of look on that course?

PCCraig

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 03:48:50 PM »
I don't believe that is natural sand, but I suppose I could be wrong.


Here is a link to an aerial of the course from 1938:
http://geo.lib.umn.edu/minneapolis/y1938/MP-5-485.jpg


To my eye bunkers then look grass faced/flat bottomed?


The green in the photo can be found in the aerial, it's in the middle/west of the photo, one hole to the east of the main road. There is a bunker behind the green.
H.P.S.

Tyler Kearns

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 04:02:54 PM »
If you look on page 46 of Rick Shefchik's book "From Fields to Fairways: Classic Golf Clubs of Minnesota", the 1928 aerial appears to feature some broken, sandy ground behind the 13th green, although it doesn't stand out like the current version.


Tyler

John Connolly

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2017, 07:05:11 PM »
Anthony Poppi's excellent book on Minikahda has old photos and Ross' drawing of the green - I've got them but have never done well getting pics into these threads using photobucket et al. If anyone can do it, PM me and I'll send them to you. 
"And yet - and yet, this New Road will some day be the Old Road, too."

                                                      Neil Munroe (1863-1930)

Thomas Dai

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 12:14:13 PM »
When I first saw the subject photo posted I thought someone had been using photoshop or it was taken part-way through some restoration/renovation work. The green site in this form doesn’t seem ‘in balance’ to my eye so it’s been interesting to read more background details from other posters.
Atb



Joe Hancock

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 12:44:36 PM »
I don’t know who did the work (architect, contractor, shaper, etc.), but my guess is it will age nicely, add some texture to the landscape, and will be a good fit.


I almost like it better here when we judge a photo, depicting golf course design work, without attribution. Somehow we respond more honestly if our lips aren’t puckered up for a donkey.
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

corey miller

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 01:21:52 PM »



I "think" the front bunkers and style look a lot more appropriate for the hole.  Always interested what in a specific clubs DNA leads to changes from the former consultant?

Do they get tired of listening?

Kyle Franz

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2017, 08:11:29 PM »
It never ceases to amaze me how many different resources you guys have for old photography and articles. I've seen pretty much every old aerial image of the property -- and I predominantly use a 1926 aerial for the work. But that is a good image that PCCraig linked from the UM website. Not sure I've seen it before.
 
Nice of Ran to include the photo of #13.
 
As for the feature behind the green, which we restored last year, it is not meant to be an actual "bunker" so to speak. It's a restoration of an old quarry that was originally behind the green. Donald Ross, Willie Watson, and Tom Bendelow utilized sand from the quarry for their course projects. Most of the property is very sandy and gravelly. Some sort of glacial/alluvial deposit I assume. Ross in particular mined sand from the quarry while making his changes to the course, which included creating the 6th and 8th holes down in a low peat bog area. So a lot of sand was mined during his projects just after the 1916 US Open. The attached black and white image shows how big and flashy the quarry was after Ross's work. Naturally, I didn't make it as tall and steep as the photos -- as I did not want it to be a maintenance issue in summertime thunderstorms. I just tried to make it look the part -- and perhaps like it had grown in a little over the decades.
 
Originally, there were a few other natural bunkers around the course mixed in with the grass-face bunkers, especially on holes around the quarry. If you look closely at PCCraigs aerial link, for example, there were some natural bunkers left of the 13th green. However, many of these bunkers had already been lost as a result of the Great Depression. There were also other unique and unusual features around the course. If you look closely at the aerial of the par-5 9th (the hole on the right closest to the driving range) it had an unusual key-hole shaped bunker in the first landing area. As I alluded to in my interview with Ran last year, I think Ross and his staff enjoyed the unique blend of their work combined with previous architects renditions. As final editors, they opted to keep some of Watson and Bendelow's most interesting and unusual features. 
 
As for the quarry, it was mainly meant to be a unique backdrop feature and historical conversation point
 


« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 07:56:00 PM by Kyle Franz »

Terry Lavin

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2017, 08:27:17 PM »
Mini eye candy.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

David_Madison

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2017, 08:31:03 PM »
Kyle - It's interesting how the perspective from where the respective photos are taken either connects or separates the quarry feature from the green. In Ran's photo, it appears to be a back bunker and other comments in this thread line up with that. Your photo of the current feature taken from the topside of the area shows that it is away from the green. But your black and white photo from long ago shows an even greater separation. Perhaps the fact that the old photo shows more of a built up wall (which you wanted to avoid) versus the smoother progression of the ground from behind the green into the "quarry" accounts for the difference in perspective.

Niall C

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2017, 07:57:42 AM »
Does this course merit a restoration and if so what is being restored ?


I can only see the first photo for some reason but based purely on that I tend to think it would be better without any back bunkers to give it more of a geometrical look which kind of fits in with the front bunkers. Not that the back bunkers don't look nicely done, they do but if it was me, and based purely on the one photo, I'd leave them out.


Niall

Randy Thompson

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Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2017, 09:57:00 AM »

Love the artistic presentation and a strong contributing factor is the bright white sand contrast. Looks to me like something new and unique and that a lot of thought went into the concept before moving forward. My guess is there will be a lot of love /hate because thats the normal results for anything new, different or unique! Just look at the early reactions from this, more or less, architectually educated group. In depth thinking, can lead to going over your markets heads and that spells risks. Controversery can also brings attention which never hurts!
I am curious how it was constructed. I would guess, a normal bunker with corresponding drainage and then seeded. Following grow-in, just remove the grass where you want to expose sand?

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2017, 10:28:10 AM »
It never ceases to amaze me how many different resources you guys have for old photography and articles. I've seen pretty much every old aerial image of the property -- and I predominantly use a 1926 aerial for the work. But that is a good image that PCCraig linked from the UM website. Not sure I've seen it before.
 
Nice of Ran to include the photo of #13.
 
As for the feature behind the green, which we restored last year, it is not meant to be an actual "bunker" so to speak. It's a restoration of an old quarry that was originally behind the green. Donald Ross, Willie Watson, and Tom Bendelow utilized sand from the quarry for their course projects. Most of the property is very sandy and gravelly. Some sort of glacial/alluvial deposit I assume. Ross in particular mined sand from the quarry while making his changes to the course, which included creating the 6th and 8th holes down in a low peat bog area. So a lot of sand was mined during his projects just after the 1916 US Open. The attached black and white image shows how big and flashy the quarry was after Ross's work. Naturally, I didn't make it as tall and steep as the photos -- as I did not want it to be a maintenance issue in summertime thunderstorms. I just tried to make it look the part -- and perhaps like it had grown in a little over the decades.
 
Originally, there were a few other natural bunkers around the course mixed in with the grass-face bunkers, especially on holes around the quarry. If you look closely at PCCraigs aerial link, for example, there were some natural bunkers left of the 13th green. However, many of these bunkers had already been lost as a result of the Great Depression. There were also other unique and unusual features around the course. If you look closely at the aerial of the par-5 9th (the hole on the right closest to the driving range) it had an unusual key-hole shaped bunker in the first landing area. As I alluded to in my interview with Ran last year, I think Ross and his staff enjoyed the unique blend of their work combined with previous architects renditions. As final editors, they opted to keep some of Watson and Bendelow's most interesting and unusual features. 
 
As for the quarry, it was mainly meant to be a unique backdrop feature and historical conversation point
 






Kyle,


Thank you very much for your thoughtful response.


If you are interested, the University of Minnesota has a pretty terrific archive of aerial photos covering almost the entire state at the following site. A very helpful tool if you are researching historical rural land use or golden age golf courses...  :)  Here is the link: https://www.lib.umn.edu/apps/mhapo/


I was completely unaware that Minikahda sits on a historically sandy site, let alone an old quarry. The surrounding neighborhood area is one that I am familiar with and it would not lead you to believe there is sand in the soil, as there are a number of woods, lakes, rivers, bogs, etc. Not to mention the 6th and 8th holes are usually pretty soft down in that SE corner/side of the property, as you note.


Despite having played the course a few times, I admit to not having seen the new quarry bunker in person. The historical ground picture you posted is very neat, and the current picture certainly gives a better perspective in that you realize it's pretty set back from play.


I would be curious to hear more about your plan or thoughts on how you would restore/renovate the bunkers going forward. For example, would you keep the more "traditional" grass faced bunkers in front of #13, or rework them to be more in line with the rougher/more natural quarry bunker behind the green? Would you renovate the bunkers on the higher/more sandy portions of the property to a style more typical of a sand based design, then have grass faced bunkers in lower lying areas?


It is also very interesting to hear your thoughts regarding Ross's renovation tactics. At White Bear YC, the exact history is hazy but Ross made alterations/consulted after William Watson "laid out" the original design. It's interesting as you would assume that Ross would of made wholesale changes to a design to either fit a design principal or to fit his eye, but perhaps he was more inclined to give advice almost on a "project basis?"


Minikahda then sounds very similar to Skokie outside Chicago where Ross reworked a few holes but there are still some holes that very much still feel like a Langford design with his very distinctive bunkering style.


Are there still plans to combine the 1st and 18th fairways, as you noted in your interview with Ran?
H.P.S.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 9
Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2017, 12:39:49 PM »
To my eye, the lines on the quarry in the background are 50% too jiggedy, and the lines on the bunkers in the foreground are 50% too straight.  Luckily, the former problem will resolve itself naturally in a couple of years, and make it easier for the other bunkers to blend.

V_Halyard

  • Total Karma: 8
Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2017, 04:53:23 PM »
I

Minikahda then sounds very similar to Skokie outside Chicago where Ross reworked a few holes but there are still some holes that very much still feel like a Langford design with his very distinctive bunkering style.



This is analogous to Cedar Rapids CC where Ross incorporated some holes from an original Bendelow 9-hole Routing into his 18-hole design.
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Mark_Fine

  • Total Karma: -3
Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2017, 01:07:26 PM »
That back bunker is very ornate and clearly shows the artistry of the architect.  That said, I hate judging courses from only photos or without really understanding what was there and/or how things evolved.  However, my first impression is that there is a disconnect with the rest of the greenside bunkers.  Sometimes when a beautiful woman has too much make-up or jewelry on it takes away from her real beauty  ;)  The same goes for golf holes and green complexes. 

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2017, 02:27:35 PM »
Perhaps Mr. Franz can elaborate but I heard a major renovation of the course was recently approved by the membership. The course is scheduled to close next summer for more than a year for a complete regrassing of the course to eliminate all poa.


Perhaps the back bunker was just a test run to a larger project.
H.P.S.

Dan Kelly

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2017, 04:03:15 PM »
It never ceases to amaze me how many different resources you guys have for old photography and articles. I've seen pretty much every old aerial image of the property -- and I predominantly use a 1926 aerial for the work. But that is a good image that PCCraig linked from the UM website. Not sure I've seen it before.
 
Nice of Ran to include the photo of #13.
 
As for the feature behind the green, which we restored last year, it is not meant to be an actual "bunker" so to speak. It's a restoration of an old quarry that was originally behind the green. Donald Ross, Willie Watson, and Tom Bendelow utilized sand from the quarry for their course projects. Most of the property is very sandy and gravelly. Some sort of glacial/alluvial deposit I assume. Ross in particular mined sand from the quarry while making his changes to the course, which included creating the 6th and 8th holes down in a low peat bog area. So a lot of sand was mined during his projects just after the 1916 US Open. The attached black and white image shows how big and flashy the quarry was after Ross's work. Naturally, I didn't make it as tall and steep as the photos -- as I did not want it to be a maintenance issue in summertime thunderstorms. I just tried to make it look the part -- and perhaps like it had grown in a little over the decades.
 
Originally, there were a few other natural bunkers around the course mixed in with the grass-face bunkers, especially on holes around the quarry. If you look closely at PCCraigs aerial link, for example, there were some natural bunkers left of the 13th green. However, many of these bunkers had already been lost as a result of the Great Depression. There were also other unique and unusual features around the course. If you look closely at the aerial of the par-5 9th (the hole on the right closest to the driving range) it had an unusual key-hole shaped bunker in the first landing area. As I alluded to in my interview with Ran last year, I think Ross and his staff enjoyed the unique blend of their work combined with previous architects renditions. As final editors, they opted to keep some of Watson and Bendelow's most interesting and unusual features. 
 
As for the quarry, it was mainly meant to be a unique backdrop feature and historical conversation point
 





Very interesting. I had presumed that the back bunker, which I have never see anyone play out of, was mere eye candy.


What was there in the years between picture 2 and picture 1?
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

PCCraig

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: New Image on Golf Club Atlas Homepage - The Minikahda Club's 13th Hole
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2018, 02:23:38 PM »
As another image of Minikahda is shown on the GCA homepage, I was reminded to post the following link which roughly details plans to close the golf course for one year for work. Perhaps Kyle can discuss some of the plans for the course in more detail?


https://www.bizjournals.com/twincities/news/2018/01/04/minikahda-club-will-reseed-grass-close-course-for.html
H.P.S.