Seth Raynor Writing Discovered

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I've discovered what I believe to be the only Seth Raynor writing that pertains to golf. It is a short piece that appeared in the January 1926 issue of Aloha magazine, the same month that Raynor passed away in Florida.


The piece attributed to Raynor is nothing more than that stating of a few facts in regards to the Royal Hotel Hawaiian course in Honolulu, now the Waialae Country Club. Construction did not begin while Raynor was there or alive and Charles Banks never participated in the construction.


Raynor Aloha Magazine 1 by Anthony Pioppi, on Flickr


Raynor Aloha Magazine 2 by Anthony Pioppi, on Flickr

[Jim_Kennedy]

maikaʻi ke keikikāne keʻokeʻo

[MCirba]

 

[John_Cullum]

Fascinating. How did you happen upon this literary gem?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I found a reference to it in an article Charles Banks wrote. I contacted the library at the University of Hawaii, which had been helpful in finding another article to see if it had back issues of Aloha magazine. I sent the query about a month ago and had forgotten all about it until the response arrived today.

It's what a state police detective I knew when I was a daily newspaper cop reporter called "flipping stones." One find leads to another...




AP

[Peter Pallotta]

Congrats, Tony, on a terrific find.
It's striking how much 'content' can be packed into so short of piece.
For me, the clear implication that the "most famous" holes are also "the best"; and the reality (for today's average golfer at least) that 6,600 yards are the "long tees" for us too, and that holes from 390-460 yards are *still* "long holes" and 540 yards is still a "three-shot" hole, and, yes, that holes in the 340-380 range are still a "drive and a pitch" etc. 
And if the course/holes are all these things to *us*, what would they have been to our average golfer ancestors.
Anyway, thanks again. It's nice to hear the quiet Mr Raynor "speak", if only briefly.

[Marty Bonnar]

Anyone know which holes the templates are?
From a quick peruse of the Club website, I’m assuming #8 is the Redan, but other than that, I’ve got nothing...
F.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

A lot of alterations over the years with some original holes lost, I believe.

[Tom_Doak]

Tony:  I think that article was actually in some of the materials Waialae gave to us at the beginning, or was in George B's archive.  I didn't see it as significant since it just looks like a transcript of an interview Raynor did, rather than something he sat down to write.

Marty, Waialae has seen many changes which messed with some of the templates.  In addition, the nines are switched for the Sony Open.  If you watch it for tournament play, the 1st is a takeoff on the Road green, the 4th is the Biarritz, the 6th a new Punchbowl [which was originally at the 2nd but would be impossible to restore now], the 7th is the Short, the 11th is the Eden [which we rotated 90 degrees, originally it played along the beach before they sold that land to the Kahala Hotel], and the 17th the Redan. 


Holes 10,14,15,16 and 18 are all changed as a result of selling beachfront property behind the tournament 17th tee and where the hotel now sits.  The first two holes played right along the beach!

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tom:


I've seen this description somewhere else, as well. What is interesting to me is this is the only example I've come across of what is purported to be Raynor's writing.


I know that some of hole corridors exist at Waialae Country Club but is there any actual Raynor left? From what I've been able to find there is minimal original design left.


Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Tom:


I've seen this description somewhere else, as well. What is interesting to me is this is the only example I've come across of what is purported to be Raynor's writing.


I know that some of hole corridors exist at Waialae Country Club but is there any actual Raynor left? From what I've been able to find there is minimal original design left.

Well, since Raynor died before the course was completed ...


There were certain obvious features:  the Biarritz green was shrunk, but still easily recognizable.  Same for the Short hole, with the familiar contour in the middle of the green.  The Redan had been rebuilt by Desmond Muirhead to take the slope out, sometime in the 1980's I think ... Ben Crenshaw remembered playing the old version of it.  Other than those, you might not have recognized anything as being Raynor's.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Raynor most likely died before construction began although he did create models of the course, according to Charles Banks.


So how many holes have been lost? Looking at the 1940 aerial I have, has to be at least three entire holes eradicated and portions of others wiped out.


In a 1927 newspaper article Banks credited  "Mr. Mayo, the superintendent on the job... for his able management of the work."

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Mayo is R.J. Mayo, " a member of the Seth Raynor organization," according to a newspaper blurb and he also built Mid Pacific.

[Tom_Doak]

So how many holes have been lost? Looking at the 1940 aerial I have, has to be at least three entire holes eradicated and portions of others wiped out.

The original 1st, 2nd, and 7th, all along the beach, were lost, as was the 9th, which played backwards down the present 1st hole, I think.  The original 5th & 6th had to be changed to arrive at the new 7th tee, and today's 9th [the 18th for the tournament] is inland from the original course.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Thanks for the information, Tom.

[Tim Gallant]

Great find Anthony!


I just happen to be reading the chapter in The Evagelist yesterday about Seth Raynor and reading the article you posted, I am amazed how similar it is to the transcript that is given within The Olympic Club monthly magazine. It follows a very similar structure (although for TOC magazine he goes home-by-hole) and even has a similar quote about it having the potential to be one of the finest in America. While there appear to be no other articles by Raynor, do you know of any additional interviews that he gave?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tim:


The Olympic interview appears to be the only full-length one of which I'm aware.


There is this quote from the Jan. 3, 1926 Star newspaper in Washington D.C. in which he is speaking about Kailua County Club (Mid Pacific).


"There are possibilities of placing both courses among the famous championship courses of the world, "Raynor said. "I don't know of any place in the world where combinations of marine scenery, rolling and plain terrain, can be found which would surpass those here."


This might have been taken from a talk Raynor gave at a dinner for Kailua and which was quoted in a Hawaii newspaper.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tim:


Here is the quote I was thinking of taken from the Jan. 23, 1927 of  the Honolulu Advertiser, ironic in that it come two days shy of the first anniversary of Raynor's death. The article is about the opening of Mid Pacific.


"'There is no doubt in my mind but that a golf course of championship length can be laid out here that will easily rank among the best five or six in the United States,' said the late Seth Raynor at a luncheon given in his honor by prominent Honolulans."

[BCrosby]

'There is no doubt in my mind but that a golf course of championship length can be laid out here that will easily rank among the best five or six in the United States,' said the late Seth Raynor at a luncheon given in his honor by prominent Honolulans."

So said the "late Seth Raynor" at a luncheon in his honor?


I have always thought that Raynor's golf courses were timeless. I didn't know he was too.


Bob


 

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Raynor was far more talented, Mr. Crosby, than most people want to give him credit for.

[BCrosby]

Tony -


Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. My point had nothing to do with Raynor as an architect. Though we can have that argument, if you wish.


My point was meant to be a humorous one. Namely, that the "late Seth Raynor", according to the newspaper account, was saying things about his golf course at a luncheon in his honor.


A reminder that grammar matters. Also a reminder that if you have to explain your joke, your joke is probably not a very good one. But, hey, points for trying.


Bob

[Jeff Loh]

I laughed...

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I erred, not you.


I understood the joke and laughed. What I was trying and failing to get across was that Raynor was capable of showing up at luncheon's in his honor a year after he died.


I'm putting my standup career idea on hold.


AP

[Colin Macqueen]

Hi Bob and Anthony,


I got both jokes and had a good chuckle at the mix-up you got yourselves into as well! You both, obviously, have a very dry sense of humour which is much appreciated in this neck of the woods.


Cheers Colin

[JC Urbina]

Long Live Seth Raynor