[Joel_Stewart]

With the talk about Streamsong Black, which golf courses have 18 greens with extreme amount of slope or undulations?


Pasatiempo comes to mind.

[Tom_Doak]

My most severe greens are probably Stonewall (North) and Lost Dunes.


Then again, some of the most severe greens in the world are:


Oakmont
Oakland Hills (S)
Crystal Downs
Augusta National
Prairie Dunes


all of which are pretty highly thought of !

[Joe Bausch]

Photos of TD's Stonewall North for those inclined:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/StonewallNorth/index.html

Edit:

And Oakmont:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Oakmont/index.html

And Yale:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Yale/index.html

And Engineers:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Engineers/index.html

And Hollywood:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Hollywood/index.html


And Lehigh:

http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/Lehigh/index.html

[Tim Martin]

I would think Yale is in there.

[Pete_Pittock]

IMHO Oregon's contribution would be  D M Kidd's Tetherow.

[Peter Pallotta]

I wish I could somehow 'compare' the subjective experiences of:
A - an average golfer, in 1937, playing Crystal Downs
B - an average golfer, in 2017,  playing Streamsong Black
C - an average golfer playing Crystal Downs in 2017
D- an average golfer playing Streamsong Black in 2097

Or Streamsong Red and Augusta; or the Loop and Pasatiempo etc at those 3 times/eras - separated by 80 and then another 80 years

In terms of actual & lasting quality instead of immediate & perceived reactions, only the long view really counts/speaks the truth, or so it seems to me.

It's a bit of a shame how much early and intense scrutiny is today brought to bear on any new golf course, and with that the thumbs up or thumbs down of the rating panels.

Some new courses have benefited dramatically from this instant acclaim; but I think such fame may prove fickle, and such intense scrutiny-focus on reactions means that some examples of potentially lasting quality might not get the chance to breathe.

[Sean_A]

I think the only US course I recall moving toward the extreme is Old Town.  Check that, I don't think the greens are extreme, but the speed can make them seem this way.  This was only one time though and it was a case of being right on the edge...if a wee bit too far on the wrong side of the edge.  There are some of courses I can think of that if the greens rolled at 11 and were firm, they would be a detriment to the design. I am told this is the case that these greens can get very fast and at least in the case of Merion I can believe it. 

Ciao

[Jay Mickle]

 Well only doing nine greens I think Sweetens Cove should certainly be in the mix

[James Brown]

Pine Valley.

[Mark_Fine]

North Berwick has a few 😊


Tom,
What about Apache Stronghold?

[MCirba]

How many courses have extreme greens that detract from the golf course?   


I would suggest that it's a very short list.

[Nigel Islam]

French Lick Hill/Ross

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Too much of a good thing is usually not a good thing 😊


North Berwick is one of my favorite courses and it has some extreme greens but if they were all like #16 it would be detracting to use your word. 

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,
What about Apache Stronghold?

There were a few difficult greens there - #1 and #5 and #9 and #17 come to mind - but they weren't nearly all like that.  #2 and #8 and #10 were pretty flat.  It was a good set of greens, when they all had grass on them.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

Engineers


The last two Metropolitan Championships have been played at Siwanoy and Metropolis...with how both were presented--extremely FAST...sure made them feel extreme.[size=78%] [/size]

[Ryan Farrow]

This reminds me of a recent round at Stanley Thomson's Sleepy Hollow in Ohio. Both the 9th and 18th greens had very severe front to back sloping greens that rendered the hole locations they cut unplayable while greens were running at an 8 or 9.


It is a good time to remember that softening some of these golden ages greens can be a good thing (at times) and how important it is  to have flat spots (less than 2%) so high greens speeds can still be playable with super fast greens, case in point, Oakmont.

[MCirba]

Ryan,


What changes have been made to the greens at Oakmont in recent years to make them more playable for modern green speeds?

[David Wuthrich]

The C&C course in Austin, Austin Golf Club has greens that only Ben could putt.

[Thomas Dai]

The Himalayas at St A comes immediately to mind (!) but my actual nomination has only 9-holes.....the Kilmore course at Carne. Swoops and humps and angles all over the greens, and terrific with it. If only the folks in charge at Carne would modify the mowing lines and generally put a bit more maintenance effort into it this 9-holer would be outstanding....a Kohinoor diamond hiding in big, big dunes.
atb

[Mike Wagner]

SLOCC

[Derek_Duncan]

Would think Ballyneal would qualify.


Most of Jim Engh's work.


Frederica at St. Simons Island is the most extreme set of greens I've seen from Fazio.

[Tom_Doak]

It is a good time to remember that softening some of these golden ages greens can be a good thing (at times) and how important it is  to have flat spots (less than 2%) so high greens speeds can still be playable with super fast greens, case in point, Oakmont.

There have to be a half-dozen greens at Oakmont where there is no hole location less than 2 1/2 %.  Unless they've changed a bunch of them since I saw them.

[Tom_Doak]

Another course that should DEFINITELY be in this conversation is White Bear Yacht Club.


And the Valliere at Morfontaine -- it's only nine holes, but it has four or five of the most severe greens I've ever seen.

[Blake Conant]

Scranton and Cape Arundel

[J_ Crisham]

In Chicago : Flossmoor and Beverly

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