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Kalen Braley

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Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2018, 02:11:49 PM »
Marty,


I am curiously confused.  I would think the news on this thread would be music to your ears given the one you started in November..


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65227.0.html
« Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 02:16:18 PM by Kalen Braley »

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2018, 03:27:37 PM »
Marty,


I am curiously confused.  I would think the news on this thread would be music to your ears given the one you started in November..


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,65227.0.html


BUSTED!
 ;)
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2018, 04:24:52 PM »
I don't judge Marty, I was just genuinely curious!!  ;D


P.S.  Scotland still remains the number 1 destination on the planet to go live and golf for a few years when/if I ever retire.

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2018, 05:06:46 PM »
I think the point i was trying to make - if, indeed there is one - is that despite the marketplace already failing with the current dozen or so courses under development, there are still some people willing to forge ahead with their plans.
Only time will tell if they are misguided fools or foresighted geniuses. Sometimes they are one and the same!
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2018, 05:15:20 PM »
You know what they say about a sucker and his money right   ;)


P.S.  If I hit that power ball lotto here in the states that's gotten pretty big, I'd probably want to build my own club too!  Or maybe i'd just join in on the Buck Club fun....

Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2018, 06:10:51 AM »
I think the point i was trying to make - if, indeed there is one - is that despite the marketplace already failing with the current dozen or so courses under development, there are still some people willing to forge ahead with their plans.
Only time will tell if they are misguided fools or foresighted geniuses. Sometimes they are one and the same!
Cheers,
F.




My observation is that new golf developments work if they are done well, but poorly conceived developments, or mediocre projects struggle. A successful project is often a good design, well built in a good location, and perhaps most importantly, has a committed owner.




Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2018, 05:57:59 AM »
Following the announcement last night that the windfarm off the shore of Balmedie is going ahead I assume Donald won’t be building his second course ? Nor presumably will he be going ahead with the hotel etc etc.
 
Niall

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2018, 11:06:18 AM »
Following the announcement last night that the windfarm off the shore of Balmedie is going ahead I assume Donald won’t be building his second course ? Nor presumably will he be going ahead with the hotel etc etc.
 
Niall


The greatest windfarm in the World!
Let's make GCA grate again!

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2018, 12:42:29 PM »
Following the announcement last night that the windfarm off the shore of Balmedie is going ahead I assume Donald won’t be building his second course ? Nor presumably will he be going ahead with the hotel etc etc.
Niall
The greatest windfarm in the World!
:)
atb

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2018, 12:12:35 PM »
St Andrews International has changed its name to The Feddinch Club St Andrews. Last March the developers told the local paper that it would open in 2018 SO LONG AS the local council granted an extension to the planning permission for the clubhouse (which was conditional on the golf course build having reached a certain point by a certain time, which it hadn't). I can't find any evidence of that extension being granted or refused. The clubhouse has always been the biggest point of contention, and I have heard it said that the golf course build started before full consent had been obtained for the clubhouse.

I read an article (more of a promotional press release actually) headed "New Golf Course At St. Andrews, Scotland Continues To Take Shape--Designer Tom Weiskopf Visits The Feddinch Club". I hadn't heard about this project until now, though from a GCA.com search it looks like it has been on the books for a looooong time...
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2018, 12:35:17 PM »
St Andrews International has changed its name to The Feddinch Club St Andrews. Last March the developers told the local paper that it would open in 2018 SO LONG AS the local council granted an extension to the planning permission for the clubhouse (which was conditional on the golf course build having reached a certain point by a certain time, which it hadn't). I can't find any evidence of that extension being granted or refused. The clubhouse has always been the biggest point of contention, and I have heard it said that the golf course build started before full consent had been obtained for the clubhouse.

I read an article (more of a promotional press release actually) headed "New Golf Course At St. Andrews, Scotland Continues To Take Shape--Designer Tom Weiskopf Visits The Feddinch Club". I hadn't heard about this project until now, though from a GCA.com search it looks like it has been on the books for a looooong time...


Doug


Feddinch, as discussed above in this thread, used by known as 'St Andrews International'. It's up on the hillside above St Andrews on the road to Leven, adjoining the Dukes course. If you look on Google Maps or Earth you'll see how far they got with construction before it was shut down, for financial reasons, several years ago.


I heard on the grapevine early this year that it was restarting, and that a contractor I know had been appointed to finish off the job, though I drove past the site during Open week and didn't see any sign of activity.


Clearly Mr McKay, the developer, has found a source of funds, though I don't know what that source is. Someone at one step removed from the development told me today that he believed the source was, or was intended to be, membership sales, but I find that hard to believe.


The thing that I have always doubted wrt Feddinch/St Andrews International is the business model. It is supposed to be a private club (US style private, with no unaccompanied visitors), with an initiation fee of around £200,000. How on earth does that work in this location? There are only two, so far as I'm aware, similar clubs in Scotland, Loch Lomond and the Carnegie Club at Skibo Castle. Both have spectacularly beautiful locations and a big historic building at the centre. Feddinch has neither of those. Further, it is in St Andrews but can offer no preferential access to the Old course, the reason everyone goes to St Andrews in the first place.


I could be 100 per cent wrong, and it might do great. I often am. But there's something odd about this one to me.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2018, 12:36:17 PM »
It is EXPENSIVE to build a new golf project from scratch.  Vastly more expensive than some posters here think. 


While some may advertise low numbers for how much it costs to "build a course," the all-in number to develop one can be anywhere from two to five times as much, once you factor in land costs, legal fees, planning costs, design fees, infrastructure, maintenance building and equipment, grow-in, clubhouse, and marketing to attract visitors or members.


So there are lots of poorly planned projects which start without an understanding of the full commitment, and then get cold feet after they've spent some money.  Some even start as a plan to attract money!


On the tail end, I hide my head when posters start going on about the pricing model of new courses, because it all goes back to what was spent.  Green fees have to support most of the above costs, not just what the golf course contractor was paid.  The old rule of thumb on that was that green fees should be $10 for every million spent on development ... but that leads to a VERY different calculation if you understand that we are talking about a $12 million [or $25 million] development instead of just a $3 million golf course construction bill.  It's just not possible to build an affordable golf course from scratch anymore, with the expectations so high.


The one thing that IS possible is to affordably add a second or third course to an existing facility, if you already have the land.  Most of the infrastructure is in place, so you're just tacking on the cost of another golf course construction [and grow in] to hopefully double the revenue, if there is that much slack to be picked up by the facility.  And that's what you see at most of the successful projects we talk about nowadays ... multiple courses in one location.

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2018, 12:36:38 PM »
Oh, and Ardfin has a website (www.ardfin.com). Nothing on it, other than a pretty picture and a contact us button, but clearly a sign that there is stuff afoot.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2018, 01:12:12 PM »
Adam

I suppose you could also add Renaissance to Skibo and Loch Lomond ?

Re Balmedie - the Donald has started punting the residential element although it's not clear (to me) whether this is a means to gauge demand, or an attempt to sell off plan before committing or whether he has already pressed the button on development ? If the latter then I suppose it makes the second course more likely.

Niall

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2018, 01:22:38 PM »
Oops, yes, I forgot TRCAA
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

V_Halyard

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2018, 01:36:05 PM »
It is EXPENSIVE to build a new golf project from scratch.  Vastly more expensive than some posters here think...


...Some even start as a plan to attract money!...

... On the tail end, I hide my head when posters start going on about the pricing model of new courses, because it all goes back to what was spent.  Green fees have to support most of the above costs, not just what the golf course contractor was paid.  The old rule of thumb on that was that green fees should be $10 for every million spent on development ... but that leads to a VERY different calculation if you understand that we are talking about a $12 million [or $25 million] development instead of just a $3 million golf course construction bill.  It's just not possible to build an affordable golf course from scratch anymore, with the expectations so high.

... The one thing that IS possible is to affordably add a second or third course to an existing facility, if you already have the land.  Most of the infrastructure is in place, so you're just tacking on the cost of another golf course construction [and grow in] to hopefully double the revenue, if there is that much slack to be picked up by the facility.  And that's what you see at most of the successful projects we talk about nowadays ... multiple courses in one location.
So I am curious, in the UK/East Lothian etc model, is a real estate play a given as part of a new single course development or is the quality of a multi-course destination Keiser model enough?
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2018, 01:59:04 PM »
The new course at Lundin is well into construction.
Cave Nil Vino

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2018, 02:35:10 PM »
It is EXPENSIVE to build a new golf project from scratch.  Vastly more expensive than some posters here think...


...Some even start as a plan to attract money!...

... On the tail end, I hide my head when posters start going on about the pricing model of new courses, because it all goes back to what was spent.  Green fees have to support most of the above costs, not just what the golf course contractor was paid.  The old rule of thumb on that was that green fees should be $10 for every million spent on development ... but that leads to a VERY different calculation if you understand that we are talking about a $12 million [or $25 million] development instead of just a $3 million golf course construction bill.  It's just not possible to build an affordable golf course from scratch anymore, with the expectations so high.

... The one thing that IS possible is to affordably add a second or third course to an existing facility, if you already have the land.  Most of the infrastructure is in place, so you're just tacking on the cost of another golf course construction [and grow in] to hopefully double the revenue, if there is that much slack to be picked up by the facility.  And that's what you see at most of the successful projects we talk about nowadays ... multiple courses in one location.
So I am curious, in the UK/East Lothian etc model, is a real estate play a given as part of a new single course development or is the quality of a multi-course destination Keiser model enough?



Neither model really exists here anymore as there is easy access to very good member's courses in most places.


Jon

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2018, 03:26:45 PM »
I believe there is a course next to Gleneagles that was built but never opened - am I correct?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2018, 03:32:14 PM »
Jerry -
Yes, that is the GWest course referenced earlier in this thread.
DT

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2018, 03:34:06 PM »
Correct David. The course has been built and maintained for the best part of a decade now but I think they might have struggled to sell the high end housing plots.

Mark Chaplin

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Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2018, 04:42:57 PM »
Jon they’ve never released the plots for sale, just before release came the 2009 crash, when things recovered the Brexit result. Big investors don’t like uncertainty so the owner hasn’t put any on sale yet. The course is still maintained daily.
Cave Nil Vino

Thomas Dai

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Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2018, 03:15:03 AM »
Any news on the second course at Castle Stuart (apologies if I've missed some news elsewhere herein)?
atb

Adam Lawrence

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Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2018, 04:08:00 AM »
Any news on the second course at Castle Stuart (apologies if I've missed some news elsewhere herein)?
atb


"Mark is still looking for further investment," according to a good source.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Update on the current state of Scotland Course Building
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2018, 04:30:42 AM »
Jon they’ve never released the plots for sale, just before release came the 2009 crash, when things recovered the Brexit result. Big investors don’t like uncertainty so the owner hasn’t put any on sale yet. The course is still maintained daily.



Difficult to sell something that is not on sale. I suspect they were always going to struggle to sell with or without the 2008 crash or Brexit.


Jon

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