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Dan Kelly

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #250 on: January 24, 2018, 05:41:00 PM »

At times I have thought it the clear-cut best course in the state.  At other times I have thought it simply fits in with the top group of courses. . . .

For me, White Bear and Northland are the courses in Minnesota worth making a special trip to see but you are cheating yourself if you do not sample a wider selection of courses in the state.


Jason --


Couldn't agree more with the latter statement.


As for the former: I think, as you say, it fits in with the top group of courses -- all of which are standouts.


As the French say: Chacun a son gout.


Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

John Crowley

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #251 on: January 24, 2018, 08:20:30 PM »
Pat,
Very good “walk” through the course and use of Jon’s photos.


Guess I’m old school because I preferred the white rock - reminiscent of GB&I courses with blind shots.


John
« Last Edit: January 24, 2018, 09:14:33 PM by John Crowley »

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #252 on: January 24, 2018, 08:39:47 PM »

I dig the bear.  Makes for a cool silhouette at the top of the hill against the sky.  Too cute by half? Perhaps. But I thought it suited the relaxed nature of the course and the club well.


I guess.   But what happens if you hit the bear?

Sean_A

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #253 on: January 24, 2018, 09:10:44 PM »
It is kind of like pointing out less than perfect teeth on a model, but man do I dislike White Bear's bunkers.  They are either weirdly placed, insipidly shallow or just plain ugly.  What are the thoughts of others?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #254 on: January 24, 2018, 09:17:11 PM »
Sean, I mentioned the poor bunkering in an earlier post. The course has so much flair in terms of terrain and green sites that the bunkering detracts from the course. A few years ago I mentioned the same thing on a post about WBYC and Tom Doak, who evidently had just been there, said something to the effect "Don't tell them that that right now." It's not my club or my money but some bunker work would make the course a world beater. It is that good.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Sean_A

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #255 on: January 24, 2018, 09:25:28 PM »
Sean, I mentioned the poor bunkering in an earlier post. The course has so much flair in terms of terrain and green sites that the bunkering detracts from the course. A few years ago I mentioned the same thing on a post about WBYC and Tom Doak, who evidently had just been there, said something to the effect "Don't tell them that that right now." It's not my club or my money but some bunker work would make the course a world beater. It is that good.

I looked again...shocking....the sand really moves the eye away from all the great land movement...which begs the question...why so many bunkers and why are they so amateurish?  Does anybody know the story?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John_Conley

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #256 on: January 25, 2018, 01:48:26 AM »
Great, great work by all responsible for this thread.

As for the course listed numero uno, it is incredibly punishing to a short hitter and provides a tremendous benefit to a bomber on many holes.  The way I describe it is like a Supercross race if you've ever seen one.  One by one guys go over jumps and carry several bumps, but inevitably somebody doesn't have enough speed at launch and digs right into the face of a hill upon landing. 


Similarly, a player with a low carry distance can drive essentially into a wall while a big hitter like the Lama not only clears the hill, but gets a nice runout on the other side.


Thanks for calling attention to many of the great courses in Minnesota.

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #257 on: January 25, 2018, 08:15:31 AM »
The way I describe it is like a Supercross race if you've ever seen one.  One by one guys go over jumps and carry several bumps, but inevitably somebody doesn't have enough speed at launch and digs right into the face of a hill upon landing. 


Similarly, a player with a low carry distance can drive essentially into a wall while a big hitter like the Lama not only clears the hill, but gets a nice runout on the other side.


That's a great analogy for WBYC ... it gives a perfect visual for the scale of the undulations, and indeed, on several holes they are right across the line of play.


Now just imagine it's a Supercross where if you get too far off line, you could also crash into a tree!

John Kavanaugh

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #258 on: January 25, 2018, 08:40:21 AM »
In all sincerity, this is one of the best written and managed threads in GCA history. It takes real effort to properly time the inclusion of each new course. Great patience and timing in each instance. I applaud the effort and contributions. Thanks.

Morgan Clawson

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #259 on: January 25, 2018, 09:06:44 AM »
Regarding the bear - I think the bear silhouette adds a sense of charm.  If you drive around the White Bear Lake area you will see these bears in front of some houses. 

Tommy and Sean - without doing a detailed count, my guess is that there are less bunkers on White Bear than on most of the top courses here.  And flipping through all these pictures, I don't feel that the bunkers are that visually prominent. Some holes don't have any around the green.  I know that Doak took out quite a few bunkers (6+?) on 7 and 16.

I agree that some of them are in unusual places, but that adds some vintage charm to the place.

A new bunker plan and execution would probably look great.  But, White Bear's hills and greens are so compelling that fancier bunkers may not make the member's wish lists.

Brandon Urban

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #260 on: January 25, 2018, 09:17:24 AM »
As a guy who's been in Minnesota just over a year, this thread has been great. I have been lucky enough to see a few of the courses listed and cannot wait to see more of them.


To Jason's point, it really is amazing the depth of good golf courses in this state. Especially coming from Kansas, where the list was pretty short.


Thanks for all of the thoughts and work that went into putting this together.
181 holes at Ballyneal on June, 19th, 2017. What a day and why I love golf - http://www.hundredholehike.com/blogs/181-little-help-my-friends

Sean_A

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #261 on: January 25, 2018, 09:21:01 AM »
Tommy and Sean - without doing a detailed count, my guess is that there are less bunkers on White Bear than on most of the top courses here.  And flipping through all these pictures, I don't feel that the bunkers are that visually prominent. Some holes don't have any around the green.  I know that Doak took out quite a few bunkers (6+?) on 7 and 16.

I agree that some of them are in unusual places, but that adds some vintage charm to the place.

A new bunker plan and execution would probably look great.  But, White Bear's hills and greens are so compelling that fancier bunkers may not make the member's wish lists.

Morgan

I am not really advocating fancy bunkers, just a scheme which doesn't interfer with the terrific landforms or draw one's eye away from what matters.  Then, if a bunker is deemed added value, make it visually count.  White Bear looks too good to have an indifferent bunker scheme.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #262 on: January 25, 2018, 09:22:43 AM »
In all sincerity, this is one of the best written and managed threads in GCA history. It takes real effort to properly time the inclusion of each new course. Great patience and timing in each instance. I applaud the effort and contributions. Thanks.


Agreed.  But one suggestion for the thread leader:  you should go back and put the entire 1-30 list somewhere, now that it's done.  The golf magazine web sites make you scroll through their pages to find what you want, and it is annoying as $&%*

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #263 on: January 25, 2018, 09:29:06 AM »

I would not say the bunkering at WBYC is one of the more important features of the course.  Like Crystal Downs, the course is primarily about the topography and the greens, which are wilder than can be depicted here.  [If they are really the work of Donald Ross, they would be probably the wildest set of greens he ever built, or at least up there with Oakland Hills.]


That's not to say the bunkering is irrelevant.  The bunker at the foot of the slope on #1, or those guarding #12 green, are just as they should be.  They could certainly benefit from better cosmetics, but I'm surprised that Sean would care about cosmetics.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #264 on: January 25, 2018, 09:52:58 AM »

I would not say the bunkering at WBYC is one of the more important features of the course.  Like Crystal Downs, the course is primarily about the topography and the greens, which are wilder than can be depicted here.  [If they are really the work of Donald Ross, they would be probably the wildest set of greens he ever built, or at least up there with Oakland Hills.]


That's not to say the bunkering is irrelevant.  The bunker at the foot of the slope on #1, or those guarding #12 green, are just as they should be.  They could certainly benefit from better cosmetics, but I'm surprised that Sean would care about cosmetics.


I agree, that is why I love the course so much. Some of the bunkers could be filled in and not hurt the layout much. However, if they are going to have bunkers why wouldn't they reconfigure them a bit to make them more interesting?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

BHoover

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #265 on: January 25, 2018, 09:58:01 AM »
I agree, that is why I love the course so much. Some of the bunkers could be filled in and not hurt the layout much. However, if they are going to have bunkers why wouldn't they reconfigure them a bit to make them more interesting?


Maybe the cost is a reason?

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #266 on: January 25, 2018, 10:17:50 AM »

Maybe the cost is a reason?



They certainly have the money if they want to spend it.  They are pretty conservative about spending it.


Somehow they seem to be immune from the top-100 fever that pervades everywhere else.  They only seem to care about their own day to day existence.  I sort of envy them for it, the same way I envy the French working thirty hours a week and taking two hours for lunch with wine ... I can't be that way, but part of me wishes I could.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #267 on: January 25, 2018, 11:16:37 AM »
30 Giants Ridge legends
29 Stillwater CC
28 Wayzata CC
27 Edina CC
26 Olympic Hills
25 Minnesota Valley
24 Keller
23 Troy Burne
22 Somerby CC
21 Deacon’s Lodge

20 Stoneridge
19 North Oaks GC
18 Midland Hills

17 Rochester golf and CC
16 Wilderness at Fortune Bay
15 Spring Hill GC
14 Oak Ridge CC
13 Somerset CC
12 Classic at Madden’s Resort
11 Town and Country Club
10 Woodhill CC
9 The Quarry at Giants Ridge
8 Minneapolis GC
7 Golden Valley tie
6 Windsong Farm GC tie
5 Hazeltine National GC
4 Minikahda Club

3 Northland CC
2 Interlachen CC
1 White Bear YC


I have played all the courses in red. I disagree with only a few. Spring Hill is in my top 5. Hazeltine would drop out to about number ten. Woodhill and Mpls GC would drop to the top 20. Somerset would be in my top ten and with some changes could get into my top 5. I think I would put Quarry about number 6.


Just out of curiosity where did Willinger's finish?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 11:26:03 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #268 on: January 25, 2018, 11:22:42 AM »
To my eye, the bunkering at White Bear is well preserved and a perfect example of a course of it's vintage. What I mean is that if you look at aerials of other golden age courses in Minnesota, the bunkering scheme is not obvious. It seems random with bunkering scattered in different locations as well as varying in size and shape.

As Morgan noted above, a number of bunkers were removed from the area surrounding the 7th and 8th greens and replaced with shortgrass. I think there are other opportunities to do that elsewhere, with unoriginal bunkers such as with the right greenside bunker at the 17th.

We are clearly in an age where bunker aesthetics mean a lot, either on new construction courses built by Messrs. Doak, Coore, Hanse, etc. or on renovations on classic courses which are often sold on moving bunkers to be "more in play", ease of maintenance, or to "frame" a hole. However to me sometimes these bunker renovations can cause the hazards to lose much of their character. 

The bunkers at White Bear are all very unique in their own ways.

Would the 1st hole be better without the cavernous greenside bunker?

Some, such as the pulpit bunker short right on the 3rd are an incredibly difficult recovery, in this case because it is only about 4 feet wide.

Some are visually very imposing, such as the fairway bunkers on the 16th which are surrounded in tall grass and must be carried to set up an ideal angle to the green on approach.

Some bunkers such as the one behind the 11th, are shallow but in a way that the best play toward a pin on the 11th green is a putt.

As Mr. Doak notes above, the bunkering on the 12th hole is nearly perfect. Depending on the location of the pin, a player might need to flirt with the right row of fairway bunkers, or if playing away from those, the player has to hit over, but close, to two cross bunkers short of the green. Bunkers behind the green gobble up overly aggressive approach shots to the green that falls away from the player. Some trench bunkers (long, skinny) can help a player stop their ball from rolling off a steep hill.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't bunkering located in somewhat random location be ideal as it allows the course to play differently in different weather & wind patterns?

That being said there has been a big effort, particularly last season, to bring the shortgrass closer to bunkers. For example, fairways bunkers at the 2nd and 13th had previously been floating in rough, but are now on the edges of the fairways.

In terms of the aesthetics of many of the bunkers, generally speaking they fit well with the overall maintenance of the golf course. Part of White Bear's charm is that it is a bit wholly and rough around it's edges. The greens don't stimp at 12. "Perfect" or "tournament" level maintenance has a place at some clubs (Hazeltine), but it would take away from the White Bear experience in my opinion.
H.P.S.

John Crowley

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #269 on: January 25, 2018, 12:13:16 PM »
WBYC is a fine example of the importance of the land (topography) first and the artistic vision of a competent architect.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #270 on: January 25, 2018, 12:58:04 PM »
I subscribe to the notion that every bunker is in play for someone. I have to admit, I like a well bunkered course. Bunker style, however, can vary as much as a course can. I have a friend who just played The European Club and hated the sleepered bunkers. In 40 years they will become a beloved part of the course. The bunkering at WBYC did not detract from my enjoyment of the round, they just did not enhance it.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #271 on: January 25, 2018, 02:34:05 PM »
In all sincerity, this is one of the best written and managed threads in GCA history. It takes real effort to properly time the inclusion of each new course. Great patience and timing in each instance. I applaud the effort and contributions. Thanks.


Agreed.  But one suggestion for the thread leader:  you should go back and put the entire 1-30 list somewhere, now that it's done.  The golf magazine web sites make you scroll through their pages to find what you want, and it is annoying as $&%*


I appreciate the kind words.


That is the plan. I was also planning on listing a table which shows all the Doak points each course received.
H.P.S.

V_Halyard

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #272 on: January 25, 2018, 03:09:48 PM »
Pat. Please know that since your delivery of the final installment of this fantastic series, I have a sense of emptiness akin to 'that first hard freeze' signaling the end of our northern golf season.  This has been most enjoyable... and I'm not from Minnesota. Plus as a native cheesehead and Packer fan (by WisconsinLaw), I truly hate the Vikings.  ;)   That makes this that much more bittersweet.


Thanks!
"It's a tiny little ball that doesn't even move... how hard could it be?"  I will walk and carry 'til I can't... or look (really) stupid.

JC Urbina

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #273 on: January 25, 2018, 11:42:41 PM »
Morgan,


Thank you for posting the photo of #16 and I agree with you, this hole really is just one of many greens that capitivates your senses.


Several years back I removed several modern looking bunkers on Holes # 7 and 16. Both of these greens were littered with bunkers that didn't make sense for the type of contour that was surrounding the green complex.  the old addage when in doubt add a bunker gets stomped out, when it comes to these two holes.


The 7th hole had an ubelievable strategic mound directly in front the green and one to the players left.  By removing the sand traps, with the help of  John Steiner and crew we were able to regrade the approach and surrounds so that the action for the ball came from the mounds and slopes and not the bunkers.  Until you see the variety of options that comes with this approach shot in person you really can not appreciate a green as dynamic as this one. Regarding hole #16, it  proved to me once again  that not every green needs  a bunker to offer intrigue. I changed the mowing presentation on both greens and again with the support of Mr Steiner was able to raise the fun factor on both of these greens, we wandered if the mowers could get the hillside groomed correctly.   By explaing to the club the intent and what the outcome would be when I removed the bunkers they were convinced that LESS was MORE


The club continues to follow a plan that enhances the look of this wonderful piece of land, its only going to get better, tree thinning, mowing line presentations and greens expansions started last spring, will only add to the charm of WBYC.


No one mentioned the new mowing presentation on # 1 green, I thought that was as good as any of the other changes that are currently happening around the golf course, of course hole #12 still captivates my heart, you will never see aonther hole like that one.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 06:57:46 AM by JC Urbina »

Jeff Schley

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #1 Now Posted!!!
« Reply #274 on: January 26, 2018, 03:35:02 AM »
Never played in Minnesota (isn't your golf season only like 5 months?  ;) ), however reading this entire thread puts me there and it is a testament to your collective imagination, attention to detail, and golf acumen.  Please go to Illinois (where I'm from) and publish that list.  Well done and thanks for giving back to the community.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

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