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Jason Thurman

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #11 Now Posted
« Reply #75 on: January 05, 2018, 11:45:24 AM »
Town & Country is a litmus test course for me. I'm more inclined to trust the recommendation of someone who loves it than of someone who doesn't.


I think it was rated properly for this exercise based on the numbers Pat shared. I could see rating it as a 4 - it has a few distinctive holes but is arguably too short and too quirky to receive higher accolades. I could see rating it as a 5 - I certainly know golfers who would be happy to play it but perhaps a bit disappointed to stay on the road an extra day to do so. I could see rating it as a 6 - a lot of golfers wouldn't think it's worth a special trip to see. And I could see rating it as a 7 - it's interesting enough to warrant special attention and unique enough to make a significant detour for...


It all just depends on who you're talking to, and the spirit with which they approach the game. I know people who would not care much for it. I tend not to pay much attention to their golf course recommendations though. It's a blast to play and much more than the sum of its parts, even though those parts are really quite good in their own right. Trying to rank it on a list with Spring Hill just reveals how goofy the whole exercise of ranking courses really is. No one should ever be on the fence about whether they're going to play Town & Country or Spring Hill - there's a correct answer to that question for each individual golfer. My answer is Town & Country.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Laz Versalles

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #11 Now Posted
« Reply #76 on: January 05, 2018, 11:54:45 AM »
Well said, Jason. Given the choice of T&C vs. Spring Hill we'd be at different courses, but your point is eloquent.

PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #77 on: January 05, 2018, 12:24:56 PM »
#10 - Woodhill Country Club, Wayzata

Moving on to our #10 course on the list, Woodhill Country Club. Woodhill was founded in 1915 by 150 of some of the most well-connected men in Minneapolis at the time. Donald Ross designed the golf course, which opened in 1917. It was reported in a number of newspapers at the time that Ross' (or the memberships) intention was to build a golf course that would rival Pine Valley. Woodhill was the site of Jack Nicklaus' 1959 Trans-Mississippi victory, as well. Geoffrey Cornish had completed a number of renovations to the course through the years, including planting trees and changing mowing lines. Architect John Fought was later brought in to complete a master plan for the club to regain some of its lost features. 

A glimpse down one of Woodhill's rolling fairways:
From Club website

From golfcoursegurus.com


Looking back at the clubhouse:
H.P.S.

Jason Topp

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #78 on: January 05, 2018, 02:09:46 PM »
A round at Woodhill feels like playing in some rich person's yard.  The entrance feels like a long driveway.  After you emerge from the woods protecting the club from the road, you pass a pond and platform tennis courts, cross the 16th fairway and then wind your way up a forest topped hill with the clubhouse sitting on its Eastern slope.


The course ticks all the boxes of a good Donald Ross course with interesting greens, par 3's that range from a pitch to a long iron/hybrid, a wide variety of par 4's and some very interesting par 5's.  It sits nicely on rolling land and fits into an awkward shape - a bit like a skinny diamond. 


The greens are diabolical when they are fast.  I have found I really enjoy them on a Monday when they have not been mowed.  I am less enthusiastic in an event when they have been cut short and rolled. 


The course used to have a reputation for being soggy - although I have not played the course in soggy condition for 10 years.  They may have remedied the issue with significant drainage.  Like many classic courses. it could lose a number of trees.   


The finishing holes on each side are a drawback.  The 9th is a dogleg right around a forest.  It is a short hole - 340 yards or so - but unless you are hitting an iron off the tee you need to carry the corner.  They 18th wraps around the opposite side of the hill and is also quite short.  You basically hit it down the hill and then pitch back to the green.


Woodhill is worth a visit for its atmosphere, the terrific golf holes, to see where Nicklaus hit the par 5 12th in two with a 1 iron and to see how the architect routed a course on a unique piece of property. 

Rick Shefchik

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2018, 03:46:11 PM »
Woodhill is the only original Ross course of the six he is credited with working on in Minnesota. I personally rank it sixth of those, putting WBYC, Northland, Interlachen, Minikahda and Minneapolis ahead of it. I don't know if that means the other courses were on better land than Woodhill or that he was given some really good work to start with by the likes of William Watson and Willie Park, Jr. The rolling woodlands that Ross turned into Woodhill are well suited for golf, but one trip around the course and it would be clear to anyone that you could not build something superior to Pine Valley there. Nevertheless, it is the only pure Ross that we have in Minnesota, and it's fun to play. I just wouldn't rate it this high.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Tom_Doak

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #80 on: January 05, 2018, 08:50:35 PM »
Many years ago I made a couple of visits to Woodhill when they were hiring a consultant.  I just couldn't get any traction there.  There are some terrible trees [the photos above have a few great examples], and just too many trees overall, so you can't see the beautiful rolls in the property.  The 7th hole, in particular, would be terrific if they'd just lose a few trees.  But I felt like I was talking to a wall of resistance.

Jake Marvin

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #81 on: January 05, 2018, 10:52:10 PM »
Now that the list is coming together, a few thoughts:


Surprised to see Woodhill and T&C this high. I can't speak to Woodhill, but T&C is a very good course hindered in rankings by the length and quirk. I'd certainly play there over Spring Hill.


Generally speaking, the public courses come in a little underrated IMO (not saying there's any correlation there, just using it as a grouping). I'd give Wilderness a Doak 7, for instance, although there aren't many circumstances which bring one within 100 miles of Tower, Minnesota. StoneRidge has a quirkiness factor of its own (and the interstate next door doesn't help, either), but it has quite a few very good holes and a unique look that I personally find attractive. And while it isn't flashy, there's hardly a bad thing to be said about Keller that doesn't mention the fourth hole. Frankly, I think The Jewel in Lake City should have cracked the list; there are definitely weak holes, but it's better than Stillwater and a couple others in the third ten courses.


The Classic is one of my favorites in the state, and the only course on the Brainerd Golf Trail marketing that offers something special. It's the sort of amateur architect project that makes guys like me feel grossly overconfident in my ability to produce a high quality course given the opportunity. Three and eleven are especially good, although there are a couple holes that definitely feel unpolished, and make the amateur design evident, like fourteen, a long, slightly uphill par three with two strangely-placed bunkers and a green that cants hard right into one of them. I have a hard time disliking those features, though, since they give the course a lot of its character and don't really hurt the course in any sense besides the aesthetic one. It's at about the right place on the list.


I'm excited to see the list count down, especially since Minnesota doesn't really have a consensus number one course. Very good work by the panel, no doubt.

Laz Versalles

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #82 on: January 06, 2018, 01:17:03 PM »
I ran to my laptop after breakfast hoping to see #9.  My life is so sad. At least the bacon was crispy.

John Crowley

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #13 Now Posted
« Reply #83 on: January 06, 2018, 02:07:31 PM »



A few comments:

The hole labeled 2 on this photo is one of my favorites on the course.  It is a dramatic tee shot and then an uphill 2nd.  I have no idea whether the resulting hole made it worthwhile to sacrifice the original short hole.

The hole labeled 7 has a nice double plateau green.  I had not noticed it prior to the last couple of years so I wonder if it was restored somewhat.

The labeled 9 is supposed to be a road hole and there must have been some recent work to reshape that green.  The lack of a road hole bunker is a bit surprising.  The tee shot captures the concept nicely with the pond and trees serving a role analogous to the Rail Sheds.

One used to have to hit a big slice off the tee on the hole labelled 10. Tree removal has fixed that but I always looked forward to trying to pull off the shot.

The Biarritz (labeled 12) has always seemed somewhat compromised to me due to the water to the left and behind the green.  I am no Raynor historian but I did once hit a tee shot I thought was good that wound up in the water so I am definitely biased on that one.

18 is a very good classic long par 4 finisher.


Jason,


If there is a "road hole" at Somerset I think it is #7 on the aerial. It starts with a semi-blind tee shot due to the rising fairway. The green is "road-ish" with the pot protecting the back left section. And there is a road directly behind the green (not too visible and not in play). The bunkers on the right side are not road-ish. The linear bunker behind the green could be imagined as a way signify the road. Have no idea how it may have been modified over the years. Right side bunkers could have been added. I have commented on it being a "road' to members and have gotten blank stares back.


John
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 04:56:40 PM by John Crowley »

John Crowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #13 Now Posted
« Reply #84 on: January 06, 2018, 02:26:30 PM »
There is no doubt that the experience of playing golf at Somerset is a treat. The old fashioned vibe, tiny pro shop, no tee times, caddie program, etc. is pretty perfect. When I played Somerset a handful of years ago the neatest part of the visit was having a drink after the round at the bar...which didn't have a bartender and was all based on the honor system!


There are some fun holes at Somerset, and as Jason notes many are closer to the perimeter. I think many of the north-south running holes in the middle of the property tend to blend together in my opinion and none were very memorable. So, in my opinion those holes hold the course back a bit.


As Jim Urbina notes, the 17th hole was completely rebuilt about 10 (?) years ago by an architect out of Chicago (not a "name" architect, per se). It's a fine hole and a good Short.


The Redan is the best hole on the course right now, in my opinion. The entire green essentially falls away from the player on the backside of a natural hill/mound. It is not a very geometric version of the template but it's a very fun hole.


The entire course has more of a feel of a Thompson or RTJ course than a Raynor, these days. It also generally suffers a bit from the remnants of some pretty typical overplanting in the 1960's/1970's/1980's. The word on the street is that the club is considering a full Raynor restoration. That would really be something to see as it is a very nice property.


Pat, Shane, Jason,


I agree, the experience at Somerset is wonderful, understated, and a joy to play. No bad holes and some very good ones. The conditioning is superb due in part, to light play. Yes, it is over-tree-d. The members have an interest in agronomy that was fostered by the founders of TORO who were/are long time members. Greens always perfect.


Brought up the Raynor restoration rumor to a member who is on a committee that would know and he had no knowledge of such.


John

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #85 on: January 06, 2018, 03:22:26 PM »
I would not have been surprised if Woodhall didn't even make the list. I played it with my son about fifteen years ago. We loved the vibe of the club but thought that the course could have been so much better. The bunkering was really a disappointment. I did like the slope and undulations on the green and the terrain was very interesting.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 11:06:54 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Topp

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #13 Now Posted
« Reply #86 on: January 06, 2018, 11:01:16 PM »



Jason,


If there is a "road hole" at Somerset I think it is #7 on the aerial. It starts with a semi-blind tee shot due to the rising fairway. The green is "road-ish" with the pot protecting the back left section. And there is a road directly behind the green (not too visible and not in play). The bunkers on the right side are not road-ish. The linear bunker behind the green could be imagined as a way signify the road. Have no idea how it may have been modified over the years. Right side bunkers could have been added. I have commented on it being a "road' to members and have gotten blank stares back.


John


John - I believe that green is a classic double plateau.

Morgan Clawson

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #87 on: January 07, 2018, 02:05:36 PM »
Here are some photos from Woodhill. I will try to add some more soon.

The 9th green is perched on a shelf.


The 10th.
[url=https://flic.kr/p/21UFMxz]


The 14th.

John Crowley

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #13 Now Posted
« Reply #88 on: January 07, 2018, 04:17:41 PM »



Jason,


If there is a "road hole" at Somerset I think it is #7 on the aerial. It starts with a semi-blind tee shot due to the rising fairway. The green is "road-ish" with the pot protecting the back left section. And there is a road directly behind the green (not too visible and not in play). The bunkers on the right side are not road-ish. The linear bunker behind the green could be imagined as a way signify the road. Have no idea how it may have been modified over the years. Right side bunkers could have been added. I have commented on it being a "road' to members and have gotten blank stares back.


John


John - I believe that green is a classic double plateau.


Jason,
On second look at aerial, #9 could be interpreted as a road. The bunker on the left is certainly not road-like but it is on the left front. The linear rear bunker could be interpreted as the road itself.


I was not remembering the putting surface on #7 very well.
J

Jeff Shelman

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #89 on: January 07, 2018, 05:35:20 PM »
There's a lot of good stuff at Woodhill, but it is one of those places that could be much improved with some work.

The greens are really good, but as others have said, there are too many trees across the property and both 9 and 18 are kind of weird holes.

I haven't had a ton of chances to play here, but I certainly don't want to turn invites down.

It is a very private place and I don't think the membership really cares what we think.


PCCraig

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #10 Now Posted
« Reply #90 on: January 08, 2018, 10:16:42 AM »
#9 - The Quarry Course at Giants Ridge, Biwabik

The Quarry Course at Giants Ridge Resort, opened in 2003 and designed by GCA's own Jeff Brauer, comes in at #9 on our list. While it doesn't receive the national attention that other modern courses that opened in the same era, it has consistently been ranked on Golf Digest's Top 100 Public Courses list, most recently at #30 and at one point was as high as #16. Deep in the heart of the State's "Iron Range", the course was carved out of dense forests and old quarry land.

A few spectacular photos from Peter Wong's website (http://www.peterwongphotography.com/):

2nd Hole:

The par 3 7th:

The drive-able par 4 13th:
H.P.S.

Ryan Hillenbrand

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #9 Now Posted
« Reply #91 on: January 08, 2018, 10:49:38 AM »
One thing I remember when this course opened was Ron Whitten gushing over it in Golf Digest. I think he made some mention that it belonged in a category with names like Cypress Point.  I didn't know much about golf courses then but I at least knew what Cypress Point was, and recall being amazed at that statement. In fact I cant remember reading another claim so bold, even about Erin Hills.

Tommy Williamsen

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #9 Now Posted
« Reply #92 on: January 08, 2018, 10:58:36 AM »
This is an exceptional course. The terrain is wild and there are holes I've never seen anywhere else. I love the way he configured the holes and sited the greens. It belongs on the top 100 public list and with its sister course is a wonderful destination.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jason Topp

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #9 Now Posted
« Reply #93 on: January 08, 2018, 12:57:14 PM »
Very fun modern course that feels big even though I believe it is squeezed into a relatively small parcel of land.  It has several holes that are creative, strategic and one of a kind.


 I have always really liked the 18th which is a long par 4 dogleg left with a cliff guarding the outside edge of the dogleg and a little rock indentation guarding the inside corner of the tee shot.  The green accepts a wide variety of shots even though it hugs the cliff on the right side. 

Jake Marvin

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #9 Now Posted
« Reply #94 on: January 08, 2018, 02:06:05 PM »
Six through thirteen at Quarry is one of the best stretches in the state, although there are numerous other holes that are very good. Two is a very unique hole where going for the green in two requires a well-placed drive to open up a shot over the quarry. Eighteen, as mentioned by Mr. Topp, is also one of a kind hole.


As an aside, the lake off 18 is an old mine pit, and it's something like 450 feet deep. Scuba divers go down there occasionally and find somewhat uncanny stuff that littered the pit before it was filled. Thankfully it's far enough away that there shouldn't be any golf balls down there.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #9 Now Posted
« Reply #95 on: January 08, 2018, 02:11:47 PM »
If there are eight better courses in Minnesota than The Quarry, you're doing pretty well.


I think we had it 6th in The Confidential Guide, behind WBYC, Interlachen, Northland, Hazeltine, and Rochester.  I had Minikahda lower, based on my one long-ago visit.  But that means you've got two more to come that I can't guess ...

Mark Saltzman

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #9 Now Posted
« Reply #96 on: January 08, 2018, 02:14:18 PM »
If there are eight better courses in Minnesota than The Quarry, you're doing pretty well.


I think we had it 6th in The Confidential Guide, behind WBYC, Interlachen, Northland, Hazeltine, and Rochester.  I had Minikahda lower, based on my one long-ago visit.  But that means you've got two more to come that I can't guess ...


Minneapolis and Golden Valley?

Jeff Shelman

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #9 Now Posted
« Reply #97 on: January 08, 2018, 02:39:13 PM »
Three more actually because Rochester was No. 17.


Two of the three (I believe) were not featured in the Confidential Guide. One for sure wasn’t in the book. 

Jake Marvin

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #9 Now Posted
« Reply #98 on: January 08, 2018, 02:56:45 PM »
If there are eight better courses in Minnesota than The Quarry, you're doing pretty well.



Admittedly, once 11-30 were announced, I popped open a notes sheet on my laptop and guessed the rest of the top ten. Quarry was my number three. I'd imagine the next few courses were grouped pretty tightly in the voting, since I think Quarry compares favorably to Hazeltine and is right up there with Minikahda and Interlachen. I haven't seen Mpls or Golden Valley, but I have to say I'm surprised to see them ranked ahead based on what I've seen and heard about them. I'd imagine Windsong is the missing course.

Morgan Clawson

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Re: The Top 30 Courses in the Great State of Minnesota - #9 Now Posted
« Reply #99 on: January 08, 2018, 02:59:40 PM »
Regarding The Quarry -

There are 6 - 10 good public/resort courses carved out of the woods in the northern half of MN that get much of their play from folks visiting for a long weekend or staying at their cabin.

The Quarry is the best of the bunch as it truly offers different options (lines of play + distance) from tee to green on a number of holes.  One thing that not coincidentally makes it unique and better than the others is it doesn't rely on bodies of water for drama and strategy. 

Some of the green sites have interesting slopes and sideboards that are fun to play with.  those are evident in the photos above.

The short par 4 13th (pictured above) is likely the most intriguing hole with a very wide green and tee and approach shot options galore.

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